path: root/58/684f331791f37f60f30ed683a0c15391987282

Delivery-date: Mon, 07 Apr 2025 03:36:04 -0700
Received: from mail-yw1-f191.google.com ([209.85.128.191])
	by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps  (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256
	(Exim 4.94.2)
	(envelope-from <bitcoindev+bncBDQ6BG4PT4CRBCWVZ27QMGQEFLOMFXA@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1u1jpj-0007Ax-NT
	for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Mon, 07 Apr 2025 03:36:04 -0700
Received: by mail-yw1-f191.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-6fecdb96e52sf61829907b3.2
        for <bitcoindev@gnusha.org>; Mon, 07 Apr 2025 03:36:03 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1744022158; x=1744626958; darn=gnusha.org;
        h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
         :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-sender:mime-version
         :subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date:sender:from
         :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
        bh=ziDCWQzysOYoNj0mYjC3mpoFUimmLoTo5pVODif5j5E=;
        b=g0ctbzpem7PKDDp2hFmrC2xiRJx6MQmezncN7id65eOs1GU4jp4EfDkF0BWN0PEGyF
         X6xmf/f+yM4W5TsgUwnqRUCyTLdkauJRTjp+xb3OQeN6YmltpFm56c0solL3F+HCbm3j
         wVgm3UMzJoYMiq7SyeeMo08AkwTJk/PW4G6knAd9Uh6aEHT3sgTZ6fikcGLIv5csaEaa
         uImJj97pP591bwphx2SPCtMK+zTa+kLE3ZPCjR8X1aknmtKxnl4S8PK39blIH92QcXSe
         DGtrQ3Ee10uKho4OOpwFHH5qza+wpV34TlLgNoK9esSFS9qEJursi8N4miSqP0KjQVJ0
         DlsQ==
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1744022158; x=1744626958; darn=gnusha.org;
        h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
         :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-sender:mime-version
         :subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date:from:to:cc
         :subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
        bh=ziDCWQzysOYoNj0mYjC3mpoFUimmLoTo5pVODif5j5E=;
        b=DCnclFa7DpgernYOBXCCezhhfKWpNT3h7y3P99ZBQvw3/w5PETFyn/MnvAQBD3ysf8
         DYuW6yOLJ1Hbvru39+P9MY/X/yF9MRd9646Rck13tJT94n756Glj1T2+0+DL1zNnXvks
         Gy2ThZGBRxZ2pnfIYj7/ba4q453FENbC6RkWdP1r5Pe6OcR9sYxaMKXzBp1Nvc6J3yQA
         K/xh4/GKuZASzn1n2/Mc5qDwNPqMCUdsRU8jBq0pkmVFiOy7HEKTjfNOIoA6lBmeOc2v
         pCpPPPMdW0wPSW2nmLGFoJGwKnmeWK763OHLlQylNpNmFML2PS5LOnPb9iLxWDo+8jJ6
         QSGQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1744022158; x=1744626958;
        h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post
         :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-sender:mime-version
         :subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date:x-beenthere
         :x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id
         :reply-to;
        bh=ziDCWQzysOYoNj0mYjC3mpoFUimmLoTo5pVODif5j5E=;
        b=qldfXtzZZKpRy+StVydByFovNbZDqtAh2znNfk/Zr0ONyX9T8E/jWF0MVuITf/qbE7
         nWOQywtnmSSXcTZVwiQKfG1JqSZWTt5EYRM1lvM/kvf8++3C1jT4h5mM6sUpiNXI2v1M
         heaa68Ed+zjbE9Env8WcQYFLJjVXeCDzwbDMT7O4ZxtLW8j1MIfQFa29byoUkLa04Ob2
         PPleWL8E1qutjlwc8SlFxa3aDWd2d2fnz3vUn+mzdi4gF6aKD33CeQBXcqKAOK9YfuFF
         4kTOEFg2kTHfCl3DlxBbKgMTqfG6bGxrLJDHoOA8zFCpY4ICYs5QmNJ9X4FARHB/qmWF
         P0HQ==
Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCU6EUhSNjUnqC0QzGCF41P0vuWphwTzuwU1YYkC1mpjp/jtpuFLNNFcWP+K+aiqeedQX/3DreKOgZvN@gnusha.org
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyR4EJl4h3HuL90+0hWL3QLe9VTRQdoKtLxdwVQMWjfharCjX/a
	mBByR2UI0Geyf+r83NOsVogoQxijfQrWtecrp4tc+Fu4buaKSPzY
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFPKqt0KTkVDT4aBXF+4TiGq840BrU9x4W0Gugdokj5uHpQ1Z76RPd6pc82CSAQrrv9HxKoXA==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:1708:b0:e6d:da84:e901 with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e6e1c226064mr21632205276.27.1744022157741;
        Mon, 07 Apr 2025 03:35:57 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; h=ARLLPALS+b8iNa2bCaVYfeTz+jBaYQM/xvlB0P8G1yJvV4rlOw==
Received: by 2002:a25:dc8a:0:b0:e6b:af35:e62d with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e6e07a99eb9ls458614276.2.-pod-prod-06-us;
 Mon, 07 Apr 2025 03:35:54 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:6805:b0:700:a6a0:1e2e with SMTP id 00721157ae682-703e137e49bmr186114407b3.0.1744022154054;
        Mon, 07 Apr 2025 03:35:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 2002:a05:690c:3749:b0:703:d6cc:4806 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-703d6cc4a43ms7b3;
        Mon, 7 Apr 2025 03:01:41 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:250a:b0:702:5927:25b1 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-703e313eba2mr213507437b3.10.1744020100548;
        Mon, 07 Apr 2025 03:01:40 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2025 03:01:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Javier Mateos <javierpmateos@gmail.com>
To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Message-Id: <35a802c4-b0dc-43a3-a087-de2babf12759n@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <Z_AMBe7CnGX_Rm14@petertodd.org>
References: <CAAQdECCdRVV+3ZoJhOotKEvmUV4yrV7EYWE8SOWCE1CF9tZ6Yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <Z5JtilN2k7HwRRXt@petertodd.org>
 <CAAQdECD9MfVqU=BLgRpUnEMa=m0cnGj4SWCcviKzpRYJktMaNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <Z_AMBe7CnGX_Rm14@petertodd.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Reiterating centralized coinjoin (Wasabi & Samourai)
 deanonymization attacks
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 
	boundary="----=_Part_470334_874221802.1744020099983"
X-Original-Sender: javierpmateos@gmail.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512
List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev
List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>,
 <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>
X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/)

------=_Part_470334_874221802.1744020099983
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
	boundary="----=_Part_470335_1125901475.1744020099983"

------=_Part_470335_1125901475.1744020099983
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello everyone,

First of all, I believe this debate has been extremely constructive,=20
despite some friction regarding inherent biases. I think Yuval has=20
identified real risks, and at the same time, there was a lack of clarity=20
regarding how the coordinator operated. If the coordinator had malicious=20
intentions in the beginning, these have been observed and brought to the=20
table by a community that is always active and vigilant about these crucial=
=20
issues. I believe this is already part of the healthy culture surrounding=
=20
Bitcoin.

At this moment, what is crucial is to look forward and demand:

-Overall Transparency: We need clear answers to questions such as: How are=
=20
the residual funds calculated and allocated? Which wallet(s) are used?=20
Ultimately, this information should be publicly verifiable on the=20
blockchain.

-Audit and Review of the Revenue Model: Is the current mechanism (which=20
retains residual funds) the best option? Could the excess be redistributed=
=20
among users? Should it be handed over to a group of independent auditors,=
=20
or what alternative is best? These are questions aimed at finding more=20
transparent options, especially if disclosed properly. They could even be=
=20
addressed through a bounty, for example.

-Audit and Review of the Protocol Architecture: The measures above would=20
help and could pave the way for the adoption of technical mitigations.

Clearly, a thorough technical and ethical review is required, or else we=20
wouldn=E2=80=99t have this healthy debate.

Regards,

-Javier



El viernes, 4 de abril de 2025 a las 14:26:17 UTC-3, Peter Todd escribi=C3=
=B3:

> On Fri, Jan 31, 2025 at 10:39:10PM +0100, Yuval Kogman wrote:
> > - https://youtu.be/v952Fd1vmOs?t=3D2073 - here, months after launching
> > his service, he fails to disclose until pressed to elaborate, then
> > admits he's collecting revenues and casually misrepresents the
> > "optimistic" behavior of wasabi (which a bug) as a "little known
> > secret" that justifies his appropriation of excess funds, which under
> > the zksnacks coordinator went to the mining fees (thereby bolstering
> > sybil resistance, not undermining it).
>
> For the record, I checked the archive.org and github history of the
> Wasabi Wallet docs themselves, and since at least Nov 23rd 2024
> (archive.org) or possible Oct 10th 2024 (git commit), they've clearly
> stated that leftovers go to the coordinator:
>
> "In rare cases the output decomposition contains change (maximum of
> 10,000 sats per coinjoin), this leftover goes to the coordinator. This
> is because creating such small amounts would harm privacy and ends up
> being more expensive than just forfeiting it."
>
> (note: this whole passage is highlighted)
>
>
> https://web.archive.org/web/20241123035844/https://docs.wasabiwallet.io/u=
sing-wasabi/CoinJoin.html#fees
>
> https://github.com/WalletWasabi/WasabiDoc/commit/a1f2f474f282918f2e1626a0=
1351ac8f1b9c43cf
>
> The git commit that introduced that language is PGP-signed by Github as
> of Nov 9th 2024.
>
> --=20
> https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/=
35a802c4-b0dc-43a3-a087-de2babf12759n%40googlegroups.com.

------=_Part_470335_1125901475.1744020099983
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello everyone,<br /><br />First of all, I believe this debate has been ext=
remely constructive, despite some friction regarding inherent biases. I thi=
nk Yuval has identified real risks, and at the same time, there was a lack =
of clarity regarding how the coordinator operated. If the coordinator had m=
alicious intentions in the beginning, these have been observed and brought =
to the table by a community that is always active and vigilant about these =
crucial issues. I believe this is already part of the healthy culture surro=
unding Bitcoin.<br /><br />At this moment, what is crucial is to look forwa=
rd and demand:<br /><br />-Overall Transparency: We need clear answers to q=
uestions such as: How are the residual funds calculated and allocated? Whic=
h wallet(s) are used? Ultimately, this information should be publicly verif=
iable on the blockchain.<br /><br />-Audit and Review of the Revenue Model:=
 Is the current mechanism (which retains residual funds) the best option? C=
ould the excess be redistributed among users? Should it be handed over to a=
 group of independent auditors, or what alternative is best? These are ques=
tions aimed at finding more transparent options, especially if disclosed pr=
operly. They could even be addressed through a bounty, for example.<br /><b=
r />-Audit and Review of the Protocol Architecture: The measures above woul=
d help and could pave the way for the adoption of technical mitigations.<br=
 /><br />Clearly, a thorough technical and ethical review is required, or e=
lse we wouldn=E2=80=99t have this healthy debate.<br /><br />Regards,<br />=
<br />-Javier<br /><div><br /></div><div><br /><br /></div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_attr">El viernes, 4 de abril de=
 2025 a las 14:26:17 UTC-3, Peter Todd escribi=C3=B3:<br/></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid=
 rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">On Fri, Jan 31, 2025 at 10:39:10PM=
 +0100, Yuval Kogman wrote:
<br>&gt; - <a href=3D"https://youtu.be/v952Fd1vmOs?t=3D2073" target=3D"_bla=
nk" rel=3D"nofollow" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=
=3Des&amp;q=3Dhttps://youtu.be/v952Fd1vmOs?t%3D2073&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;=
ust=3D1744104079252000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw3Iq_dBcXBBOqnUPEqxsoTO">https://yout=
u.be/v952Fd1vmOs?t=3D2073</a> - here, months after launching
<br>&gt; his service, he fails to disclose until pressed to elaborate, then
<br>&gt; admits he&#39;s collecting revenues and casually misrepresents the
<br>&gt; &quot;optimistic&quot; behavior of wasabi (which a bug) as a &quot=
;little known
<br>&gt; secret&quot; that justifies his appropriation of excess funds, whi=
ch under
<br>&gt; the zksnacks coordinator went to the mining fees (thereby bolsteri=
ng
<br>&gt; sybil resistance, not undermining it).
<br>
<br>For the record, I checked the <a href=3D"http://archive.org" target=3D"=
_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url=
?hl=3Des&amp;q=3Dhttp://archive.org&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1744104079=
252000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw09_JI2mig8X8ZbamHF9IxJ">archive.org</a> and github h=
istory of the
<br>Wasabi Wallet docs themselves, and since at least Nov 23rd 2024
<br>(<a href=3D"http://archive.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data=
-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Des&amp;q=3Dhttp://archi=
ve.org&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1744104079252000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw09_JI2=
mig8X8ZbamHF9IxJ">archive.org</a>) or possible Oct 10th 2024 (git commit), =
they&#39;ve clearly
<br>stated that leftovers go to the coordinator:
<br>
<br>&quot;In rare cases the output decomposition contains change (maximum o=
f
<br>10,000 sats per coinjoin), this leftover goes to the coordinator. This
<br>is because creating such small amounts would harm privacy and ends up
<br>being more expensive than just forfeiting it.&quot;
<br>
<br>(note: this whole passage is highlighted)
<br>
<br><a href=3D"https://web.archive.org/web/20241123035844/https://docs.wasa=
biwallet.io/using-wasabi/CoinJoin.html#fees" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofol=
low" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Des&amp;q=3Dhtt=
ps://web.archive.org/web/20241123035844/https://docs.wasabiwallet.io/using-=
wasabi/CoinJoin.html%23fees&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1744104079252000&a=
mp;usg=3DAOvVaw0-Bfku34QsdItCsn2HPsBi">https://web.archive.org/web/20241123=
035844/https://docs.wasabiwallet.io/using-wasabi/CoinJoin.html#fees</a>
<br><a href=3D"https://github.com/WalletWasabi/WasabiDoc/commit/a1f2f474f28=
2918f2e1626a01351ac8f1b9c43cf" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-safe=
redirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Des&amp;q=3Dhttps://github.co=
m/WalletWasabi/WasabiDoc/commit/a1f2f474f282918f2e1626a01351ac8f1b9c43cf&am=
p;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1744104079252000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw3RK-KMASd3HaaDj=
p1pZS6g">https://github.com/WalletWasabi/WasabiDoc/commit/a1f2f474f282918f2=
e1626a01351ac8f1b9c43cf</a>
<br>
<br>The git commit that introduced that language is PGP-signed by Github as
<br>of Nov 9th 2024.
<br>
<br>--=20
<br><a href=3D"https://petertodd.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" da=
ta-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Des&amp;q=3Dhttps://pe=
tertodd.org&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1744104079252000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw3=
xAOXumUB7Sq2rrhl57GQt">https://petertodd.org</a> &#39;peter&#39;[:-1]@<a hr=
ef=3D"http://petertodd.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-safered=
irecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Des&amp;q=3Dhttp://petertodd.org=
&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1744104079252000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw2DKyyXbToqG6=
SppFWbi2Yz">petertodd.org</a>
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">bitcoind=
ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To view this discussion visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/=
bitcoindev/35a802c4-b0dc-43a3-a087-de2babf12759n%40googlegroups.com?utm_med=
ium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoind=
ev/35a802c4-b0dc-43a3-a087-de2babf12759n%40googlegroups.com</a>.<br />

------=_Part_470335_1125901475.1744020099983--

------=_Part_470334_874221802.1744020099983--