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Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 04:06:13 -0800
Message-ID: <CABr1YTefbYqqtx0fSm_GBASxE2Za9EGWOPM2A5X4PRxbVemyiw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com>
To: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com>
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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4
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I should note that my proposal does require a change to the consensus
rules...but getting bitcoin to scale will require this no matter what.
- Eric Lombrozo
On Feb 22, 2015 3:41 AM, "Eric Lombrozo" <elombrozo@gmail.com> wrote:
> It seems to me we're confusing two completely different motivations for
> double-spending. One is the ability to replace a fee, the other is the
> ability to replace outputs.
>
> If the double-spend were to merely add or remove inputs (but keep at leas=
t
> one input in common, of course), it seems fairly safe to assume it's the
> former, a genuine fee replacement. Even allowing for things like coinjoin=
,
> none of the payees would really care either way.
>
> Conversely, if at least one of the inputs were kept but none of the
> outputs were, we can be confident it's the the latter.
>
> It is possible to build a wallet that always does the former when doing
> fee replacement by using another transaction to create an output with
> exactly the additional desired fee.
>
> If we can clearly distinguish these two cases then the fee replacement
> case can be handled by relaying both and letting miners pick one or the
> other while the output replacement case could be handled by rewarding
> everything to a miner (essentially all outputs are voided...made
> unredeemable...and all inputs are added to coinbase) if the miner include=
s
> the two conflicting transactions in the same block.
>
> Wouldn't this essentially solve the problem?
>
> - Eric Lombrozo
> On Feb 21, 2015 8:09 PM, "Jeff Garzik" <jgarzik@bitpay.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n <jtimon@jtimon.cc> wr=
ote:
>> > On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> This isn't some theoretical exercise. Like it or not many use
>> >> insecure 0-conf transactions for rapid payments. Deploying something
>> >> that makes 0-conf transactions unusable would have a wide, negative
>> >> impact on present day bitcoin payments, thus "scorched earth"
>>
>> > And maybe by maintaining first seen policies we're harming the system
>> > in the long term by encouraging people to widely deploy systems based
>> > on extremely weak assumptions.
>>
>> Lacking a coded, reviewed alternative, that's only a platitude.
>> Widely used 0-conf payments are where we're at today. Simply ceasing
>> the "maintaining [of] first seen policies" alone is simply not a
>> realistic option. The negative impact to today's userbase would be
>> huge.
>>
>> Instant payments need a security upgrade, yes.
>>
>> --
>> Jeff Garzik
>> Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
>> BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------=
------
>> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
>> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards
>> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & mor=
e
>> Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE
>>
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D190641631&iu=3D/4140/ost=
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>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>
--001a11c34010b4a23f050fac1c39
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<p dir=3D"ltr">I should note that my proposal does require a change to the =
consensus rules...but getting bitcoin to scale will require this no matter =
what.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">- Eric Lombrozo</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Feb 22, 2015 3:41 AM, "Eric Lombrozo&quo=
t; <<a href=3D"mailto:elombrozo@gmail.com">elombrozo@gmail.com</a>> w=
rote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr"=
>It seems to me we're confusing two completely different motivations fo=
r double-spending. One is the ability to replace a fee, the other is the ab=
ility to replace outputs.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">If the double-spend were to merely add or remove inputs (but=
keep at least one input in common, of course), it seems fairly safe to ass=
ume it's the former, a genuine fee replacement. Even allowing for thing=
s like coinjoin, none of the payees would really care either way.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Conversely, if at least one of the inputs were kept but none=
of the outputs were, we can be confident it's the the latter.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">It is possible to build a wallet that always does the former=
when doing fee replacement by using another transaction to create an outpu=
t with exactly the additional desired fee.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">If we can clearly distinguish these two cases then the fee r=
eplacement case can be handled by relaying both and letting miners pick one=
or the other while the output replacement case could be handled by rewardi=
ng everything to a miner (essentially all outputs are voided...made unredee=
mable...and all inputs are added to coinbase) if the miner includes the two=
conflicting transactions in the same block.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Wouldn't this essentially solve the problem?</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">- Eric Lombrozo</p>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Feb 21, 2015 8:09 PM, "Jeff Garzik"=
<<a href=3D"mailto:jgarzik@bitpay.com" target=3D"_blank">jgarzik@bitpay=
.com</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">=
On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 10:25 PM, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n <jtimon@jtimon.cc>=
wrote:<br>
> On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 11:47 PM, Jeff Garzik <<a href=3D"mailto:jg=
arzik@bitpay.com" target=3D"_blank">jgarzik@bitpay.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> This isn't some theoretical exercise.=C2=A0 Like it or not man=
y use<br>
>> insecure 0-conf transactions for rapid payments.=C2=A0 Deploying s=
omething<br>
>> that makes 0-conf transactions unusable would have a wide, negativ=
e<br>
>> impact on present day bitcoin payments, thus "scorched earth&=
quot;<br>
<br>
> And maybe by maintaining first seen policies we're harming the sys=
tem<br>
> in the long term by encouraging people to widely deploy systems based<=
br>
> on extremely weak assumptions.<br>
<br>
Lacking a coded, reviewed alternative, that's only a platitude.<br>
Widely used 0-conf payments are where we're at today.=C2=A0 Simply ceas=
ing<br>
the "maintaining [of] first seen policies" alone is simply not a<=
br>
realistic option.=C2=A0 The negative impact to today's userbase would b=
e<br>
huge.<br>
<br>
Instant payments need a security upgrade, yes.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Jeff Garzik<br>
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist<br>
BitPay, Inc.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://bitpay.com/" target=3D"=
_blank">https://bitpay.com/</a><br>
<br>
---------------------------------------------------------------------------=
---<br>
Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server<br>
from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards<br=
>
with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & mo=
re<br>
Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE<br=
>
<a href=3D"http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D190641631&iu=
=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk" target=3D"_blank">http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gam=
pad/clk?id=3D190641631&iu=3D/4140/ostg.clktrk</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_bla=
nk">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
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" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
velopment</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div>
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