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To: Erik Aronesty <erik@q32.com>
From: angus <angus@toaster.cc>
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Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
 John Carvalho <john@synonym.to>
Subject: [bitcoin-dev] [Opt-in full-RBF] Zero-conf apps in immediate danger
	(angus)
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I think the fundamental disagreement here that's causing the controversy a=
nd impasse is this:



Those in favour of Full RBF see trusting and relying on predictable mempoo=
l policy as a fundamentally flawed=C2=A0bad idea. Node policy is not a con=
sensus rule - a miner has always been allowed to produce a block in the wa=
y a Full RBF node now would. An otherwise valid block that contains a tx t=
hat your not-full-RBF node ignored because it double-spent an earlier lowe=
r fee tx that didn't opt in to RBF is still a valid block. Knowing this, w=
e conclude that it doesn't matter how useful or widely used Zero Conf is, =
it is fundamentally unsafe and should be=C2=A0actively discouraged, and ch=
anging mempool policy is a way to do this. The existence of Lightning as a=
n alternative for immediate settlement makes this case stronger.



(As I see it) those that oppose Full RBF and want Zero Conf use to continu=
e argue that node mempool policy=C2=A0can=C2=A0and=C2=A0has=C2=A0been reli=
ed upon for a long time already, and argue (rightly) that Zero Conf accept=
ance is already widely used and useful for both customers and merchants. F=
urther arguing that Full RBF can be sucessfully unshipped, which requires =
that majority of node operators don't particularly care about it. Lastly, =
that neither miners nor users have an economic incentive to switch to Full=
 RBF from the current core First-Seen policy. (Am I missing something else=
?)



---



I have sympathy for the utility argument, but to me it's completely overpo=
wered by the "node policy is not consensus and not trustworthy" argument. =
Zero Conf acceptance rests on trusting that nodes are running with a first=
-seen policy. Just because this has worked out OK so far, doesn't mean tha=
t you won't get got bigtime in the future. You can accept this risk if you=
 want to, but it shouldn't be a soft-rule that everyone else running a nod=
e should please help reduce that risk for you.

Sure, if I'm selling something on eBay or whatever for 100k sats and someo=
ne wants to pay in BTC in person, I'll accept with zero confirmations beca=
use there's a degree of trust and the risk isn't unbearable. If I'm accept=
ing BTC as a company though, no, I'm not considering zero-confirmation tra=
nsactions as settled.



I don't think the economic incentive argument currently matters all that m=
uch - miners want to maximise fees, users want to minimise, it's hard to t=
ell which policy would have the higher overall fees for miners, and who wi=
ns miners-vs-users. This would also seem to depend on how wallets do or do=
n't make use of the new RBF option (particularly hard for multisig). There=
 is still an obvious incentive for someone to double-spend attack a Zero-C=
onf merchant, though.



I could be convinced to reverse my stance and oppose Full RBF if there was=
 a strong economic argument that miners (better still, miners and users) s=
hould oppose it, because that would imply first-seen is incentive aligned.=
 Aligning policy with incentives feels like the correct principle.



But for now, I want to run a Full RBF node because I see it as ultimately =
making Bitcoin stronger. It eliminates a use-case that takes risk. Accepti=
ng Zero Conf changes from "hrm, you shouldn't really do that but it works =
most of the time" to "no, really don't do that, you will probably lose mon=
ey". Perhaps this is actually somewhat "vindictive, and perverse" as John =
said, but Bitcoin is money for enemies.



Thanks,

Angus
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Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc"
Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc"

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: ProtonMail

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-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


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