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From: Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof.com>
In-Reply-To: <lfv5ml$vl8$1@ger.gmane.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2014 16:12:45 +0100
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References: <CAKaEYhK4oXH3hB7uS3=AEkA6r0VB5OYyTua+LOP18rq+rYajHg@mail.gmail.com>	<52852C2D.9020103@gmail.com>	<52853D8A.6010501@monetize.io>	<CAJHLa0M6CkoDbD6FFixf9-mmhug7DvehSWCJ+EHWVxUDuwNiBg@mail.gmail.com>	<EE02A310-8604-4811-B2D0-FC32C72C20F3@grabhive.com>	<CAJHLa0OMcTCgGESi-F4jT2NA3FyCeMYbD_52j47t3keEYBfK8g@mail.gmail.com>	<CAKm8k+3J9Po4xQn9LhTQrnrGCvG36-kLCjWPX4kmd-c7h+LujA@mail.gmail.com>	<CANEZrP1VbQPapKJCLcE0+vpK0xac6D6JxRGKdagPVchfZjpUmQ@mail.gmail.com>	<lfscfd$3cs$1@ger.gmane.org>	<lfv2an$iv3$1@ger.gmane.org>	<362072F0-1EA8-4474-AE26-4691C852A22C@bitsofproof.com>	<lfv4tm$lpg$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<A1A0E432-3E76-429C-AADF-083A0041C34B@bitsofproof.com>
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To: Andreas Schildbach <andreas@schildbach.de>
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Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
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I think you want to misunderstand me Andreas.

It is astonishing arrogance to define the units because we in Bitcoin =
are used to
some wierd notation and ignore that the vast majority of population and=20=

 financial software in existence does not have a notion of prices
with more than two decimals.

With 1 bit =3D 100 satoshi, we would solve this problem for good.=20
Instead mBTC is a confusing step in-between.

Tamas Blummer
http://bitsofproof.com

On 14.03.2014, at 16:02, Andreas Schildbach <andreas@schildbach.de> =
wrote:

> By that definition 3.56 is a price. Maybe I misunderstood you and =
you're
> lobbying for mBTC?
>=20
>=20
> On 03/14/2014 03:57 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
>> you miss the point Andreas. It is not about the magnitude but about
>> the form of a price.
>>=20
>> A number with no decimals or with two decimals is percieved as a
>> price in some currency.=20
>>=20
>> A number with more than two decimals is just not percieved as a price
>> but as a geeky something that you rather convert to local currency.
>>=20
>> Tamas Blummer
>> Bits of Proof
>>=20
>> On 14.03.2014, at 15:49, Andreas Schildbach <andreas@schildbach.de
>> <mailto:andreas@schildbach.de>> wrote:
>>=20
>>> How much do you pay for an Espresso in your local currency?
>>>=20
>>> At least for the Euro and the Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to =
what
>>> people would expect. Certainly more familiar than =C2=B5BTC 3558 or =
BTC
>>> 0.003578.
>>>=20
>>> Anyway, I was just sharing real-world experience: nobody is =
confused.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas Blummer wrote:
>>>> You give them a hard to interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder
>>>> why they rather look at local currency. Because the choices you
>>>> gave them are bad.
>>>>=20
>>>> I think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as a
>>>> currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like currencies
>>>> do.
>>>>=20
>>>> 3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as accepted as 3558 bits
>>>> would be.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Tamas Blummer Bits of Proof
>>>>=20
>>>> On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach <andreas@schildbach.de
>>>> <mailto:andreas@schildbach.de>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> btw. None of Bitcoin Wallet's users complained about confusion
>>>>> because of the mBTC switch. In contrast, I get many mails and
>>>>> questions if exchange rates happen to differ by >10%.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin price. It's the amount in
>>>>> local currency that matters to the users.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach wrote:
>>>>>> Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for
>>>>>> =C2=B5BTC.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched
>>>>>> other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to
>>>>>> mBTC.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote:
>>>>>>> The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted.
>>>>>>> It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread
>>>>>>> now.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe
>>>>>>> <g.rowe@froot.co.uk <mailto:g.rowe@froot.co.uk>
>>>>>>> <mailto:g.rowe@froot.co.uk>> wrote:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive
>>>>>>> presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple
>>>>>>> configuration panel giving pretty much every possible
>>>>>>> combination: icon, m+icon,  =CE=BC+icon, BTC, mBTC,  =CE=BCBTC, =
XBT,
>>>>>>> mXBT,  =CE=BCXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing
>>>>>>> symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to
>>>>>>> customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit
>>>>>>> symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving
>>>>>>> icon+m etc).
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from
>>>>>>> the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it
>>>>>>> seems that =CE=BC+icon is more sensible.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Let us know what you'd like.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font
>>>>>>> Awesome icon:
>>>>>>> http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI
>>>>>>> guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com
>>>>>>> <mailto:jgarzik@bitpay.com>
>>>>>>> <mailto:jgarzik@bitpay.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Resurrecting this topic.  Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC
>>>>>>> several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like
>>>>>>> the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will
>>>>>>> happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to
>>>>>>> yet another decimal place transition.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
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> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and =
their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
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> http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">I think you want to misunderstand me =
Andreas.</div><div apple-content-edited=3D"true"><br></div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">It is astonishing arrogance to define the =
units because we in Bitcoin are used to</div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">some wierd notation and ignore that the =
vast majority of population and&nbsp;</div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">&nbsp;financial software in =
existence&nbsp;does not have a notion of prices</div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">with more&nbsp;than two =
decimals.</div><div apple-content-edited=3D"true"><br></div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">With 1 bit =3D 100 satoshi, we would solve =
this problem for good.&nbsp;</div><div =
apple-content-edited=3D"true">Instead mBTC is&nbsp;a confusing step =
in-between.</div><div apple-content-edited=3D"true"><br style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
display: inline !important; float: none; ">Tamas Blummer</span><br =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: =
-webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
display: inline !important; float: none; "><a =
href=3D"http://bitsofproof.com">http://bitsofproof.com</a></span>
</div>
<br><div><div>On 14.03.2014, at 16:02, Andreas Schildbach &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:andreas@schildbach.de">andreas@schildbach.de</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">By that definition 3.56 is a price. Maybe I misunderstood =
you and you're<br>lobbying for mBTC?<br><br><br>On 03/14/2014 03:57 PM, =
Tamas Blummer wrote:<br><blockquote type=3D"cite">you miss the point =
Andreas. It is not about the magnitude but about<br>the form of a =
price.<br><br>A number with no decimals or with two decimals is =
percieved as a<br>price in some currency. <br><br>A number with more =
than two decimals is just not percieved as a price<br>but as a geeky =
something that you rather convert to local currency.<br><br>Tamas =
Blummer<br>Bits of Proof<br><br>On 14.03.2014, at 15:49, Andreas =
Schildbach &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:andreas@schildbach.de">andreas@schildbach.de</a><br>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:andreas@schildbach.de">mailto:andreas@schildbach.de</a>&gt;=
&gt; wrote:<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">How much do you pay for an =
Espresso in your local currency?<br><br>At least for the Euro and the =
Dollar, mBTC 3.56 is very close to what<br>people would expect. =
Certainly more familiar than =C2=B5BTC 3558 or =
BTC<br>0.003578.<br><br>Anyway, I was just sharing real-world =
experience: nobody is confused.<br><br><br>On 03/14/2014 03:14 PM, Tamas =
Blummer wrote:<br><blockquote type=3D"cite">You give them a hard to =
interpret thing like mBTC and then wonder<br>why they rather look at =
local currency. Because the choices you<br>gave them are bad.<br><br>I =
think Bitcoin would have a better chance to be percieved as =
a<br>currency of its own if it had prices and fractions like =
currencies<br>do.<br><br>3.558 mBTC or 0.003578 BTC will never be as =
accepted as 3558 bits<br>would be.<br><br><br>Tamas Blummer Bits of =
Proof<br><br>On 14.03.2014, at 15:05, Andreas Schildbach &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:andreas@schildbach.de">andreas@schildbach.de</a><br>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:andreas@schildbach.de">mailto:andreas@schildbach.de</a>&gt;=
&gt;<br>wrote:<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">btw. None of Bitcoin =
Wallet's users complained about confusion<br>because of the mBTC switch. =
In contrast, I get many mails and<br>questions if exchange rates happen =
to differ by &gt;10%.<br><br>I suspect nobody looks at the Bitcoin =
price. It's the amount in<br>local currency that matters to the =
users.<br><br><br>On 03/13/2014 02:40 PM, Andreas Schildbach =
wrote:<br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Indeed. And users were crying for =
mBTC. Nobody was asking for<br>=C2=B5BTC.<br><br>I must admit I was not =
aware if this thread. I just watched<br>other wallets and at some point =
decided its time to switch to<br>mBTC.<br><br><br>On 03/13/2014 02:31 =
PM, Mike Hearn wrote:<br><blockquote type=3D"cite">The standard has =
become mBTC and that's what was adopted.<br>It's too late to try and =
sway this on a mailing list thread<br>now.<br><br><br>On Thu, Mar 13, =
2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe<br>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:g.rowe@froot.co.uk">g.rowe@froot.co.uk</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:g.rowe@froot.co.uk">mailto:g.rowe@froot.co.uk</a>&gt;<br>&l=
t;<a =
href=3D"mailto:g.rowe@froot.co.uk">mailto:g.rowe@froot.co.uk</a>&gt;&gt; =
wrote:<br><br>The MultiBit HD view is that this is a =
locale-sensitive<br>presentation issue. As a result we offer a =
simple<br>configuration panel giving pretty much every =
possible<br>combination: icon, m+icon, &nbsp;=CE=BC+icon, BTC, mBTC, =
&nbsp;=CE=BCBTC, XBT,<br>mXBT, &nbsp;=CE=BCXBT, sat along with settings =
for leading/trailing<br>symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows =
anyone to<br>customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered =
default.<br><br><br>We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of =
SI unit<br>symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL =
giving<br>icon+m etc).<br><br>Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use =
m+icon taken from<br>the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier =
posts it<br>seems that =CE=BC+icon is more sensible.<br><br>Let us know =
what you'd like.<br><br>Links: m+icon screenshot: <a =
href=3D"http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG">http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG</a> =
Font<br>Awesome icon:<br><a =
href=3D"http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/">http://fortaw=
esome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/</a> NIST SI<br>guidelines: <a =
href=3D"http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html">http://physics.nist=
.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html</a><br><br><br>On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff =
Garzik &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jgarzik@bitpay.com">jgarzik@bitpay.com</a><br>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jgarzik@bitpay.com">mailto:jgarzik@bitpay.com</a>&gt;<br>&l=
t;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jgarzik@bitpay.com">mailto:jgarzik@bitpay.com</a>&gt;&gt; =
wrote:<br><br>Resurrecting this topic. &nbsp;Bitcoin Wallet moved to =
mBTC<br>several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded =
like<br>the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which =
will<br>happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks =
to<br>yet another decimal place =
transition.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></block=
quote></blockquote><br><br><br>-------------------------------------------=
-----------------------------------<br>Learn Graph Databases - Download =
FREE O'Reilly Book<br>"Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to =
graph databases and their<br>applications. Written by three acclaimed =
leaders in the field,<br>this first edition is now available. Download =
your free book today!<br><a =
href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech">http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTe=
ch</a><br>_______________________________________________<br>Bitcoin-devel=
opment mailing =
list<br>Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net<br>https://lists.sourcef=
orge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development<br></blockquote></div><br></bo=
dy></html>=

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