path: root/43/9c88b137c434a2736fcad90a0aa7b5125d9516

Return-Path: <lf-lists@mattcorallo.com>
Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [140.211.166.133])
 by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 729C7C002A;
 Sat,  6 May 2023 06:05:16 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
 by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 399B14044F;
 Sat,  6 May 2023 06:05:16 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org 399B14044F
Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org;
 dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mattcorallo.com header.i=@mattcorallo.com
 header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=1683351661 header.b=UpCzkaob; 
 dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=clients.mail.as397444.net
 header.i=@clients.mail.as397444.net header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=1683351663
 header.b=PIIQjQVb
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.909
X-Spam-Level: 
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5
 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
 DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001,
 MIME_HTML_ONLY=0.1, MIME_HTML_ONLY_MULTI=0.001,
 MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, MPART_ALT_DIFF=0.79, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7,
 SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001]
 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
 by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
 with ESMTP id O_zl_0NkHWTk; Sat,  6 May 2023 06:05:15 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: delayed 00:06:06 by SQLgrey-1.8.0
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org E1BFC400D8
X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0
Received: from mail.as397444.net (mail.as397444.net [IPv6:2620:6e:a000:1::99])
 by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1BFC400D8;
 Sat,  6 May 2023 06:05:14 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=mattcorallo.com; s=1683351661; h=To:In-Reply-To:Cc:References:Subject:From:
 From:Subject:To:Cc:Reply-To; bh=M1qGgwkwDDXnwk3Mq7ZfWQP89mk9ZRR+c4tgeLkpikE=; 
 b=UpCzkaob8VooLMa0+qsPnjDNz9uHPgi7TF0rQfSxFNZC8qvb2x/2QM3XXbbI6D5V3LoMIdQQf/E
 1Pgry/U5OrH6RXdT8MDk12kKe+L3rS65nJkOjHFGBZMXxpWPw4wh2NlhDQ2lpBC8OfXn75g63x7v3
 dkrivqhsPGW06pHD4+qpA/M/jFTjltXU4DyUKHx8pwFUgCjslNp5LNONdanInTWfxh2izKHR2tbMD
 JKRlpZdfkMUGnzvFgdWVOL2JmFYi0d4CMrVmKN8Wy7+SLjOujV1vY/v/qnkQx/bGNhFqi86HfYv1i
 xYQPLVf0QWqCY8FLlgr6boBT+3sbTbX2tvKg==;
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed;
 d=clients.mail.as397444.net; s=1683351663; h=To:In-Reply-To:Cc:References:
 Subject:From:From:Subject:To:Cc:Reply-To;
 bh=M1qGgwkwDDXnwk3Mq7ZfWQP89mk9ZRR+c4tgeLkpikE=; b=PIIQjQVbs/gDpoW8FyRyAgHMKU
 2IDgWs3VbDll8ZfwlGIeJ0udeJqakWChVMJ7FvAfK8DIUKyJ2LfPXtJH7NgV0qfQV1w4+hRAtRBF7
 WQPkC9gKrZ1VkIEl4VAKNYnyQ67fOqg19flqRZUz7rcbBIZDBF+N6YwNUUtN0ydNNuRFNhU+hyktA
 MO1k/ozxooby8QtSG0hDR/wZECo/gqpWKDrGZgroJ6jpfsblfh3DgTfT5wDfs1MBzZr51E/g7+SZx
 EzPdFsd9JzlJ8N0Z7tQcQdr54+GK6ZNeDlwhGIs0Nq8lV6cq3ofdFYliNTpxvP7uoXDFbMtXGVfih
 oiudqF3A==;
Received: by mail.as397444.net with esmtpsa (TLS1.3) (Exim)
 (envelope-from <lf-lists@mattcorallo.com>) id 1pvAwi-00DYXI-2b;
 Sat, 06 May 2023 05:59:05 +0000
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary=Apple-Mail-912C2163-CCD9-4188-9ABC-638C3467BC6E
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
From: Matt Corallo <lf-lists@mattcorallo.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2023 22:58:55 -0700
Message-Id: <D6B5388F-DE78-4516-8A91-D33DE9B01395@mattcorallo.com>
References: <aka4qP9Cig-OhfMlQ9y1kghZWExjpno4cs47KIgYwv4aLYtiQB37eHbj2X2hiDuoK0D1gSeKWP97P0bRADbTg1CZRBIpHGZ5WFFYPWIJ87Y=@protonmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <aka4qP9Cig-OhfMlQ9y1kghZWExjpno4cs47KIgYwv4aLYtiQB37eHbj2X2hiDuoK0D1gSeKWP97P0bRADbTg1CZRBIpHGZ5WFFYPWIJ87Y=@protonmail.com>
To: Michael Folkson <michaelfolkson@protonmail.com>,
 Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
X-DKIM-Note: Keys used to sign are likely public at
 https://as397444.net/dkim/mattcorallo.com
X-DKIM-Note: For more info, see https://as397444.net/dkim/
Cc: Lightning Dev <lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] A new Bitcoin implementation
	integrated with Core Lightning
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, 
 <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 May 2023 06:05:16 -0000


--Apple-Mail-912C2163-CCD9-4188-9ABC-638C3467BC6E
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi M=
ichael,</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">While I don=E2=80=99=
t think forks of Core with an intent to drive consensus rule changes (or lac=
k thereof) benefits the bitcoin system as the Bitcoin Core project stands to=
day, if you want to build a nice full node wallet with lightning based on a f=
ork of Core, there was code written to do this some years ago.</div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bi=
tcoin/pull/18179">https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/18179</a></div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">It never went anywhere as lightning=
 (and especially LDK!) were far from ready to be a first class feature in bi=
tcoin core at the time (and I=E2=80=99d argue still today), but as a separat=
e project it could be interesting, at least if maintenance burden were kept t=
o a sustainable level.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Matt=
</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div dir=3D"ltr"></div><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
On Jan 14, 2023, at 13:03, Michael Folkson via Lightning-dev &lt;lightning-d=
ev@lists.linuxfoundation.org&gt; wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquot=
e type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div style=3D"font-family: Arial; f=
ont-size: 14px;">I tweeted this [0] back in November 2022.</div><div style=3D=
"font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: A=
rial; font-size: 14px;">"With the btcd bugs and the analysis paralysis on a R=
BF policy option in Core increasingly thinking @BitcoinKnots and consensus c=
ompatible forks of Core are the future. Gonna chalk that one up to another t=
hing @LukeDashjr was right about all along."</div><div style=3D"font-family:=
 Arial; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-s=
ize: 14px;">A new bare bones Knots style Bitcoin implementation (in C++/C) i=
ntegrated with Core Lightning was a long term idea I had (and presumably man=
y others have had) but the dysfunction on the Bitcoin Core project this week=
 (if anything it has been getting worse over time, not better) has made me s=
tart to take the idea more seriously. It is clear to me that the current way=
 the Bitcoin Core project is being managed is not how I would like an open s=
ource project to be managed. Very little discussion is public anymore and de=
cisions seem to be increasingly made behind closed doors or in private IRC c=
hannels (to the extent that decisions are made at all). Core Lightning seems=
 to have the opposite problem. It is managed effectively in the open (admitt=
edly with fewer contributors) but doesn't have the eyeballs or the usage tha=
t Bitcoin Core does. Regardless, selfishly I at some point would like a bare=
 bones Bitcoin and Lightning implementation integrated in one codebase. The B=
itcoin Core codebase has collected a lot of cruft over time and the ultra co=
nservatism that is needed when treating (potential) consensus code seems to p=
ermeate into parts of the codebase that no one is using, definitely isn't co=
nsensus code and should probably just be removed.</div><div style=3D"font-fa=
mily: Arial; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial; f=
ont-size: 14px;">The libbitcoinkernel project was (is?) an attempt to extrac=
t the consensus engine out of Core but it seems like it won't achieve that a=
s consensus is just too slippery a concept and Knots style consensus compati=
ble codebase forks of Bitcoin Core seem to still the model. To what extent y=
ou can safely chop off this cruft and effectively maintain this less crufty f=
ork of Bitcoin Core also isn't clear to me yet.</div><div style=3D"font-fami=
ly: Arial; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial; fon=
t-size: 14px;">Then there is the question of whether it makes sense to mix C=
 and C++ code that people have different views on. C++ is obviously a supers=
et of C but assuming this merging of Bitcoin Core and Core Lightning is/was t=
he optimal final destination it surely would have been better if Core Lightn=
ing was written in the same language (i.e. with classes) as Bitcoin Core.</d=
iv><div style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D=
"font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px;">I'm just floating the idea to (hopefu=
lly) hear from people who are much more familiar with the entirety of the Bi=
tcoin Core and Core Lightning codebases. It would be an ambitious long term p=
roject but it would be nice to focus on some ambitious project(s) (even if j=
ust conceptually) for a while given (thankfully) there seems to be a lull in=
 soft fork activation chaos.</div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-siz=
e: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px;">Than=
ks</div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px;">Michael</div><di=
v style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><div style=3D"fon=
t-family: Arial; font-size: 14px;"><span style=3D"color: rgb(34, 34, 34); ba=
ckground-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">[0]:&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:Times;font-size:15px;white-space:pre-wrap;background-color:rgb(0, 0, 0)=
;display:inline !important"><a href=3D"https://twitter.com/michaelfolkson/st=
atus/1589220155006910464?s=3D20&amp;t=3DGbPm7w5BqS7rS3kiVFTNcw"><span style=3D=
"color: rgb(34, 34, 34); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">https://twit=
ter.com/michaelfolkson/status/1589220155006910464?s=3D20&amp;t=3DGbPm7w5BqS7=
rS3kiVFTNcw</span></a></span></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-si=
ze: 14px;"><br></div>
<div class=3D"protonmail_signature_block" style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-=
size: 14px;">
    <div class=3D"protonmail_signature_block-user">
        <div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-size:14px;"><span style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text=
-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacing:0px;backgr=
ound-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline;"><span style=3D"font-=
family:'SFMono-Regular', Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Menlo, monospace, mono=
space;" class=3D"font"><span style=3D"font-size:14px;" class=3D"size">--<br>=
Michael Folkson<br>Email: michaelfolkson at </span></span></span><a href=3D"=
http://protonmail.com/" style=3D"line-height:normal;text-decoration:underlin=
e;font-family:'SFMono-Regular', Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Menlo, monospac=
e, monospace;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing=
:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spacin=
g:0px;" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">protonmail.com</a><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spac=
ing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:pre-wrap;word-spa=
cing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline;"><span=
 style=3D"font-family:'SFMono-Regular', Consolas, 'Liberation Mono', Menlo, m=
onospace, monospace;" class=3D"font"><span style=3D"font-size:14px;" class=3D=
"size"> </span></span></span><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:arial;font-=
size:14px;"><span style=3D"color:rgb(38,42,51);font-style:normal;font-weight=
:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:p=
re-wrap;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;displa=
y:inline;"><span style=3D"font-family:'SFMono-Regular', Consolas, 'Liberatio=
n Mono', Menlo, monospace, monospace;" class=3D"font"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:14px;" class=3D"size">Keybase: michaelfolkson<br>PGP: 43ED C999 9F85 1D40=
 EAF4 9835 92D6 0159 214C FEE3</span></span></span><br></div>
    </div>
   =20
            <div class=3D"protonmail_signature_block-proton protonmail_signa=
ture_block-empty">
       =20
            </div>
</div>
<span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Lightn=
ing-dev mailing list</span><br><span>Lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org=
</span><br><span>https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/lightnin=
g</span></div></blockquote></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-912C2163-CCD9-4188-9ABC-638C3467BC6E--