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From: Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAAO2FKFkMHy0i3GV1aHXu8Hiw5uVnSE2pk17n2mCqOfY-D8Weg@mail.gmail.com>
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To: Hector Chu <hectorchu@gmail.com>
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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] A reason we can all agree on to increase block
size
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> On Aug 3, 2015, at 1:52 AM, Hector Chu <hectorchu@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> On 3 August 2015 at 09:38, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com =
<mailto:elombrozo@gmail.com>> wrote:
> We already have much more efficient, far more scalable systems that =
allow this kind of cooperation you speak of without the inconveniences =
of blockchains and such.
>=20
> There is a degree of difference between cooperation in day-to-day =
usage of the system and cooperation in the rare cases the system has a =
bug.
>=20
If it=E2=80=99s an as-of-yet unidentified issue that comes up, =
yes=E2=80=A6obviously we can=E2=80=99t plan for everything and we=E2=80=99=
ll make some mistakes. But here we=E2=80=99re talking about specific =
well-known issues (or at least well-known today) for which several =
people have proposed potential solutions. However, these things have =
been all but ignored in the public discourse.
> These incidents do, fortunately, present some of the better sides of =
humanity=E2=80=A6but=E2=80=A6the design of the network *broke* - and for =
reasons that are now well understood to be only worsened by larger =
blocks. These incidents are *not supposed to happen* - and if they do, =
it means we=E2=80=99ve botched something up and need to fix it. And by =
fix it, I mean fix the protocol so that given our best understanding of =
things in the present we can significantly reduce the potential for its =
occurrence in the future.
>=20
> Distribution by consensus is inherently a fragile system. The network =
will continue to break again and again as long as programmers are =
fallible. But the types of bugs that occur will change over time as we =
learn the best practices for maintaining the system.
I agree. But again, once we=E2=80=99ve identified specific issues, it is =
irresponsible to continue to pretend they don=E2=80=99t exist=E2=80=A6and =
to more highly prioritize changes that can only make the problem worse.
Again, for the record, I am not against ultimately allowing bigger =
blocks. I think it would be a good thing to be able to do this=E2=80=A6and=
my main concerns are not around things like equipment costs or typical =
household bandwidth. I just think security is a more important feature =
than greater throughput and prioritize it thusly.
> The correct incentives here were not due to people potentially losing =
a lot of money. The incentives here were well-intentioned altruism. Some =
miners lost money as a result of these actions=E2=80=A6and they didn=E2=80=
=99t put up a fight. if you want to design a system around the =
assumption that this is how all such incidents will be resolved, please =
don=E2=80=99t spoil this for the rest of us.
>=20
> Altruism is a facade that hides other motivations. The party =
cooperating with the miners losing money were doing so to maintain good =
relationships with those miners and to make sure those miners stay =
within the system and not attack it.
I don=E2=80=99t disagree=E2=80=A6clearly even the miners that lost money =
believed that consensus was more valuable to them than a few bitcoins. =
However, it seems to be EXTREMELY dangerous to assume that it will =
always work out this way. What=E2=80=99s to stop a mining majority from =
deciding on-the-fly they want to keep a particular consensus rule that =
benefits them even if the core developers disagree?
>=20
> - Eric
>=20
>> On Aug 3, 2015, at 1:31 AM, Hector Chu <hectorchu@gmail.com =
<mailto:hectorchu@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> What's wrong with a little cooperation to resolve things now and =
then? Man is not an island unto himself, we compete with each other and =
we cooperate with each other occasionally if it's mutually beneficial.
>>=20
>> You said yourself that a lot of money would have been lost if the two =
hard forks cited weren't resolved - that's the correct incentives at =
work again.
>>=20
>> On 3 August 2015 at 09:20, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com =
<mailto:elombrozo@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> There have already been two notable incidents requiring manual =
intervention and good-faith cooperation between core devs and mining =
pool operators that would have either never gotten resolved alone or =
would have ended up costing a lot of people a lot of money had no action =
been taken (March 2013 and July 2015). They were both caused by =
consensus disagreement that directly or indirectly were brought about by =
bigger blocks. There is *strong* evidence=E2=80=A6and a great deal of =
theory explaining it=E2=80=A6that links larger blocks with the =
propensity for consensus forks that require manual intervention.
>>=20
>> Please, can we stop saying this is merely about decentralization and =
trustlessness? The very model upon which the security of the system is =
based *broke*=E2=80=A6as in, we were only able to recover because a few =
individuals deliberately manipulated the consensus rules to fix it =
manually. Shouldn=E2=80=99t we more highly prioritize fixing the issues =
that can lead to these incidents than trying to increase throughput? =
Increasing block size cannot possibly make these forking tendencies =
better=E2=80=A6but it very well could make them worse.
>>=20
>> - Eric
>>=20
>>> On Aug 3, 2015, at 1:06 AM, Hector Chu via bitcoin-dev =
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> On 3 August 2015 at 08:53, Adam Back <adam@cypherspace.org =
<mailto:adam@cypherspace.org>> wrote:
>>> Again this should not be a political or business compromise model - =
we
>>> must focus on scientific evaluation, technical requirements and
>>> security.
>>>=20
>>> I will assert that the block size is political because it affects =
nearly all users to some degree and not all those users are technically =
inclined or care to keep decentralisation in the current configuration =
as you do. This debate has forgotten the current and future users of =
Bitcoin. Most of them think the hit to node count in the short term =
preferable to making it expensive and competitive to transact.
>>>=20
>>> We all need a little faith that the system will reorganise and =
readjust after the move to big blocks in a way that still has a =
reasonable degree of decentralisation and trustlessness. The incentives =
of Bitcoin remain, so everyone's decentralised decision throughout the =
system, from miners, merchants and users, will continue to act according =
to those incentives.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev =
<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
--Apple-Mail=_A6485220-5643-4509-9DE1-FB5C37267D62
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=utf-8
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Aug 3, 2015, at 1:52 AM, Hector Chu <<a =
href=3D"mailto:hectorchu@gmail.com" class=3D"">hectorchu@gmail.com</a>>=
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On 3 August 2015 at 09:38, Eric Lombrozo <span =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><<a href=3D"mailto:elombrozo@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">elombrozo@gmail.com</a>></span> =
wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D"">We already =
have much more efficient, far more scalable systems that allow this kind =
of cooperation you speak of without the inconveniences of blockchains =
and such.</div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There is a degree of difference between =
cooperation in day-to-day usage of the system and cooperation in the =
rare cases the system has a bug.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>If it=E2=80=99s an as-of-yet unidentified issue =
that comes up, yes=E2=80=A6obviously we can=E2=80=99t plan for =
everything and we=E2=80=99ll make some mistakes. But here we=E2=80=99re =
talking about specific well-known issues (or at least well-known today) =
for which several people have proposed potential solutions. However, =
these things have been all but ignored in the public discourse.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D"">These =
incidents do, fortunately, present some of the better sides of =
humanity=E2=80=A6but=E2=80=A6the design of the network *broke* - and for =
reasons that are now well understood to be only worsened by larger =
blocks. These incidents are *not supposed to happen* - and if they do, =
it means we=E2=80=99ve botched something up and need to fix it. And by =
fix it, I mean fix the protocol so that given our best understanding of =
things in the present we can significantly reduce the potential for its =
occurrence in the future.</div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Distribution by consensus is inherently =
a fragile system. The network will continue to break again and again as =
long as programmers are fallible. But the types of bugs that occur will =
change over time as we learn the best practices for maintaining the =
system.</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>I agree. But again, once we=E2=80=99ve identified =
specific issues, it is irresponsible to continue to pretend they don=E2=80=
=99t exist=E2=80=A6and to more highly prioritize changes that can only =
make the problem worse.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Again, for =
the record, I am not against ultimately allowing bigger blocks. I think =
it would be a good thing to be able to do this=E2=80=A6and my main =
concerns are not around things like equipment costs or typical household =
bandwidth. I just think security is a more important feature than =
greater throughput and prioritize it thusly.<br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D"">The correct =
incentives here were not due to people potentially losing a lot of =
money. The incentives here were well-intentioned altruism. Some miners =
lost money as a result of these actions=E2=80=A6and they didn=E2=80=99t =
put up a fight. if you want to design a system around the assumption =
that this is how all such incidents will be resolved, please don=E2=80=99t=
spoil this for the rest of us.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Altruism is a facade that hides other =
motivations. The party cooperating with the miners losing money were =
doing so to maintain good relationships with those miners and to make =
sure those miners stay within the system and not attack =
it.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>I =
don=E2=80=99t disagree=E2=80=A6clearly even the miners that lost money =
believed that consensus was more valuable to them than a few bitcoins. =
However, it seems to be EXTREMELY dangerous to assume that it will =
always work out this way. What=E2=80=99s to stop a mining majority from =
deciding on-the-fly they want to keep a particular consensus rule that =
benefits them even if the core developers disagree?</div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D""></div><span =
class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- Eric</div></font></span><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug =
3, 2015, at 1:31 AM, Hector Chu <<a href=3D"mailto:hectorchu@gmail.com"=
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">hectorchu@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">What's wrong with a little cooperation to resolve things now =
and then? Man is not an island unto himself, we compete with each other =
and we cooperate with each other occasionally if it's mutually =
beneficial.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">You said =
yourself that a lot of money would have been lost if the two hard forks =
cited weren't resolved - that's the correct incentives at work =
again.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On 3 August 2015 at 09:20, Eric Lombrozo <span =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><<a href=3D"mailto:elombrozo@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">elombrozo@gmail.com</a>></span> =
wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D"">There have already been two =
notable incidents requiring manual intervention and good-faith =
cooperation between core devs and mining pool operators that would have =
either never gotten resolved alone or would have ended up costing a lot =
of people a lot of money had no action been taken (March 2013 and July =
2015). They were both caused by consensus disagreement that directly or =
indirectly were brought about by bigger blocks. There is *strong* =
evidence=E2=80=A6and a great deal of theory explaining it=E2=80=A6that =
links larger blocks with the propensity for consensus forks that require =
manual intervention.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Please, can we stop saying this is merely about =
decentralization and trustlessness? The very model upon which the =
security of the system is based *broke*=E2=80=A6as in, we were only able =
to recover because a few individuals deliberately manipulated the =
consensus rules to fix it manually. Shouldn=E2=80=99t we more highly =
prioritize fixing the issues that can lead to these incidents than =
trying to increase throughput? Increasing block size cannot possibly =
make these forking tendencies better=E2=80=A6but it very well could make =
them worse.</div><span class=3D""><font color=3D"#888888" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- =
Eric</div></font></span><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 3, 2015, at 1:06 AM, Hector Chu via =
bitcoin-dev <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>>=
wrote:</div><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 3 August 2015 at =
08:53, Adam Back <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><<a =
href=3D"mailto:adam@cypherspace.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">adam@cypherspace.org</a>></span> wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Again this should not =
be a political or business compromise model - we<br class=3D"">
must focus on scientific evaluation, technical requirements and<br =
class=3D"">
security.<br class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>I will assert that the block size is political because =
it affects nearly all users to some degree and not all those users are =
technically inclined or care to keep decentralisation in the current =
configuration as you do. This debate has forgotten the current and =
future users of Bitcoin. Most of them think the hit to node count in the =
short term preferable to making it expensive and competitive to =
transact.</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">We all need a little faith that the system will =
reorganise and readjust after the move to big blocks in a way that still =
has a reasonable degree of decentralisation and trustlessness. The =
incentives of Bitcoin remain, so everyone's decentralised decision =
throughout the system, from miners, merchants and users, will continue =
to act according to those incentives.</div></div></div></div></div><span =
class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">bitcoin-dev =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<=
/a><br class=3D""></span></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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