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From: Christian Decker <decker.christian@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 2025 13:44:32 +0200
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Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] [Proposal] 64-bit arithmetic in Script
To: Chris Stewart <stewart.chris1234@gmail.com>
Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_Habov=C5=A1tiak?= <martin.habovstiak@gmail.com>, 
	Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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Hi Chris,

quite an interesting proposal, but much like Martin I wonder if we
shouldn't go beyond. For comparison Rusty's GSR comprises arbitrary
sized integers and their associated operations, with fine-grained
accounting of operations based on the operands size, so scripts stay
performant and manageable.

That proposal is much further along in both design and analysis, so
maybe you could join that effort for your use-cases too?

Cheers,
Christian

On Tue, May 13, 2025 at 11:06=E2=80=AFAM Chris Stewart
<stewart.chris1234@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Martin
>
> Thanks for your interest in the topic.
>
> >It mentions upgrading existing opcodes, which is a hardfork, not soft fo=
rk, at least without using a different leaf version. But it also mentions O=
P_SUCCESSX which are different opcodes
>
> I view 64-bit arithmetic as a feature of a wider set of consensus changes=
. Here is what I think the most likely deployment story is
>
> >This proposal could be deployed in conjunction with any of the new opcod=
e proposals in the Motivation section using Tapscript's OP_SUCCESSx semanti=
cs.[18]
>
> The opcodes mentioned in the motivation section are OP_{IN,OUT}_AMOUNT, O=
P_VAULT, OP_CHECKCONTRACTVERIFY, OP_CTV
>
> As an example, this proposal could (hypothetically) be deployed in conjun=
ction with OP_CCV. OP_CCV would take advantage of the OP_SUCCESSx semantics=
 allowing us to redefine existing opcode's (OP_ADD,OP_SUB, etc) semantics.
>
> There=E2=80=99s been some discussion around deploying OP_CTV via a NOP op=
code instead of OP_SUCCESSx. I think that would be a poor choice, as it wou=
ldn=E2=80=99t allow new Script features to be shipped in parallel with the =
new opcode.
>
> I found this StackExchange post helpful in thinking through various deplo=
yment strategies for new Tapscript-based consensus upgrades.
>
> >I'd also love to see analysis why stop at 64 bits and not go all the way=
 to 256 which could be useful for cryptography.
>
> In my view, there=E2=80=99s still a lot of uncertainty about cryptographi=
c features being added to Script. There's increasing discussion around quan=
tum computing, which raises the question of how much numerical precision we=
 may eventually need. I'm not opposed to extending precision further=E2=80=
=94but if we go beyond 64 bits, why stop at 256? With OP_SUCCESSx, arbitrar=
y precision becomes a real option.
>
> I chose 64 bits because it covers what=E2=80=99s needed for amount locks.=
 If someone strongly believes that 64 bits isn't enough, I=E2=80=99d welcom=
e a competing BIP and would be happy to review and discuss it with the auth=
or.
>
> >Anyway, pushing amounts on the stack would be great. Though I'm surprise=
d you're only proposing the sum, not individual outputs. Why?
>
> Good question=E2=80=94and slightly out of scope for this BIP. Script does=
n=E2=80=99t support looping, so it=E2=80=99s not straightforward to iterate=
 over and sum all elements unless the transaction structure (i.e., number o=
f inputs or outputs) is known in advance.
> You can measure the number of stack elements with OP_DEPTH, but there=E2=
=80=99s no way to write something like OP_ADD [num-stack-elements-from-OP_D=
EPTH] to sum them all. I=E2=80=99m definitely open to hearing other approac=
hes, though.
>
> -Chris
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 2:32=E2=80=AFPM Martin Habov=C5=A1tiak <martin.ha=
bovstiak@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> the proposal seems to be quite confused about how it's going to do that.=
 It mentions upgrading existing opcodes, which is a hardfork, not soft fork=
, at least without using a different leaf version. But it also mentions OP_=
SUCCESSX which are different opcodes. I think it needs some analysis. (leaf=
 version seems better intuitively)
>>
>> I'd also love to see analysis why stop at 64 bits and not go all the way=
 to 256 which could be useful for cryptography.
>>
>> Anyway, pushing amounts on the stack would be great. Though I'm surprise=
d you're only proposing the sum, not individual outputs. Why?
>>
>> Good luck!
>>
>> Martin
>>
>> D=C5=88a po 12. 5. 2025, 14:21 Chris Stewart <stewart.chris1234@gmail.co=
m> nap=C3=ADsal(a):
>>>
>>> This soft fork proposal extends the range of numeric operands in Script=
 from -2^31+1 to 2^31-1, to -2^63+1 to 2^63-1. It further expands the resul=
t range for arithmetic operations from -2^63 to 2^63-1, to -2^127 to 2^127-=
 1.
>>>
>>> All existing opcodes[1] that interpret stack elements as numbers are up=
graded to support 64-bit parameters.
>>>
>>> The existing number encoding format[2] and arithmetic semantics[3] from=
 the original Bitcoin implementation are preserved, while enhancing the sup=
ported precision.
>>>
>>> https://github.com/Christewart/bips/blob/2025-03-17-64bit-pt2/bip-XXXX.=
mediawiki
>>>
>>> The purpose for this BIP is to lay the groundwork for introducing amoun=
ts into Script. This document takes no opinion on how this is done.
>>>
>>> I've prototyped a few different proposals now introducing amount locks =
into Script[0][1] and feel like this proposal is stable enough for serious =
review.
>>>
>>> -Chris
>>>
>>> [0] - https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/op-inout-amount/549/4?u=3Dchris_stew=
art_5
>>>
>>> [1] - https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/op-inout-amount/549/5?u=3Dchris_stew=
art_5
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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>
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