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To: Jim Phillips <jim@ergophobia.org>
From: Thy Shizzle <thyshizzle@outlook.com>
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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] No Bitcoin For You
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Indeed Jim=2C your internet connection makes a good reason why I don't like=
 20mb blocks (right now). It would take you well over a minute to download =
the block before you could even relay it on=2C so much slow down in propaga=
tion! Yes I do see how decreasing the time to create blocks is a bit of a b=
and-aid fix=2C and to use tge term I've seen mentioned here "kicking the ca=
n down the road" I agree that this is doing this=2C however as you say band=
width is our biggest enemy right now and so hopefully by the time we exceed=
 the capacity gained by the decrease in block time=2C we can then look to b=
ump up block size because hopefully 20mbps connections will be baseline by =
then etc.
________________________________
From: Jim Phillips<mailto:jim@ergophobia.org>
Sent: =E2=80=8E26/=E2=80=8E05/=E2=80=8E2015 12:53 PM
To: Thy Shizzle<mailto:thyshizzle@outlook.com>
Cc: Mike Hearn<mailto:mike@plan99.net>=3B Bitcoin Dev<mailto:bitcoin-develo=
pment@lists.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] No Bitcoin For You

Frankly I'm good with either way. I'm definitely in favor of faster
confirmation times.

The important thing is that we need to increase the amount of transactions
that get into blocks over a given time frame to a point that is in line
with what current technology can handle. We can handle WAY more than we are
doing right now. The Bitcoin network is not currently Disk=2C CPU=2C or RAM
bound.. Not even close. The metric we're closest to being restricted by
would be Network bandwidth. I live in a developing country. 2Mbps is a
typical broadband speed here (although 5Mbps and 10Mbps connections are
affordable). That equates to about 17MB per minute=2C or 170x more capacity
than what I need to receive a full copy of the blockchain if I only talk to
one peer. If I relay to say 10 peers=2C I can still handle 17x larger block
sizes on a slow 2Mbps connection.

Also=2C even if we reduce the difficulty so that we're doing 1MB blocks eve=
ry
minute=2C that's still only 10MB every 10 minutes. Eventually we're going t=
o
have to increase that=2C and we can only reduce the confirmation period so
much. I think someone once said 30 seconds or so is about the shortest
period you can practically achieve.

--
*James G. Phillips IV*
<https://plus.google.com/u/0/113107039501292625391/posts>
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/ergophobe>

*"Don't bunt. Aim out of the ball park. Aim for the company of immortals."
-- David Ogilvy*

 *This message was created with 100% recycled electrons. Please think twice
before printing.*

On Mon=2C May 25=2C 2015 at 9:30 PM=2C Thy Shizzle <thyshizzle@outlook.com>=
 wrote:

>  Nah don't make blocks 20mb=2C then you are slowing down block propagatio=
n
> and blowing out conf tikes as a result. Just decrease the time it takes t=
o
> make a 1mb block=2C then you still see the same propagation times today a=
nd
> just increase the transaction throughput.
>  ------------------------------
> From: Jim Phillips <jim@ergophobia.org>
> Sent: =E2=80=8E26/=E2=80=8E05/=E2=80=8E2015 12:27 PM
> To: Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net>
> Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] No Bitcoin For You
>
>
> On Mon=2C May 25=2C 2015 at 1:36 PM=2C Mike Hearn <mike@plan99.net> wrote=
:
>
>   This meme about datacenter-sized nodes has to die. The Bitcoin wiki is
> down right now=2C but I showed years ago that you could keep up with VISA=
 on
> a single well specced server with today's technology. Only people living =
in
> a dreamworld think that Bitcoin might actually have to match that level o=
f
> transaction demand with today's hardware. As noted previously=2C "too man=
y
> users" is simply not a problem Bitcoin has .... and may never have!
>
>
>  ... And will certainly NEVER have if we can't solve the capacity problem
> SOON.
>
>  In a former life=2C I was a capacity planner for Bank of America's
> mid-range server group. We had one hard and fast rule. When you are
> typically exceeding 75% of capacity on a given metric=2C it's time to exp=
and
> capacity. Period. You don't do silly things like adjusting the business
> model to disincentivize use. Unless there's some flaw in the system and
> it's leaking resources=2C if usage has increased to the point where you a=
re
> at or near the limits of capacity=2C you expand capacity. It's as simple =
as
> that=2C and I've found that same rule fits quite well in a number of syst=
ems.
>
>  In Bitcoin=2C we're not leaking resources. There's no flaw. The system i=
s
> performing as intended. Usage is increasing because it works so well=2C a=
nd
> there is huge potential for future growth as we identify more uses and
> attract more users. There might be a few technical things we can do to
> reduce consumption=2C but the metric we're concerned with right now is ho=
w
> many transactions we can fit in a block. We've broken through the 75%
> marker and are regularly bumping up against the 100% limit.
>
>  It is time to stop debating this and take action to expand capacity. The
> only questions that should remain are how much capacity do we add=2C and =
how
> soon can we do it. Given that most existing computer systems and networks
> can easily handle 20MB blocks every 10 minutes=2C and given that that wil=
l
> increase capacity 20-fold=2C I can't think of a single reason why we can'=
t go
> to 20MB as soon as humanly possible. And in a few years=2C when the avera=
ge
> block size is over 15MB=2C we bump it up again to as high as we can go th=
en
> without pushing typical computers or networks beyond their capacity. We c=
an
> worry about ways to slow down growth without affecting the usefulness of
> Bitcoin as we get closer to the hard technical limits on our capacity.
>
>  And you know what else? If miners need higher fees to accommodate the
> costs of bigger blocks=2C they can configure their nodes to only mine
> transactions with higher fees.. Let the miners decide how to charge enoug=
h
> to pay for their costs. We don't need to cripple the network just for the=
m.
>
>  --
> *James G. Phillips IV*
> <https://plus.google.com/u/0/113107039501292625391/posts>
>
> *"Don't bunt. Aim out of the ball park. Aim for the company of immortals.=
"
> -- David Ogilvy *
>
>   *This message was created with 100% recycled electrons. Please think
> twice before printing.*
>
>

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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html=3B charset=3Dutf-8">
</head>
<body>
<div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 11pt=3B">Inde=
ed Jim=2C your internet connection makes a good reason why I don't like 20m=
b blocks (right now). It would take you well over a minute to download the =
block before you could even relay it on=2C so
 much slow down in propagation! Yes I do see how decreasing the time to cre=
ate blocks is a bit of a band-aid fix=2C and to use tge term I've seen ment=
ioned here &quot=3Bkicking the can down the road&quot=3B I agree that this =
is doing this=2C however as you say bandwidth is our
 biggest enemy right now and so hopefully by the time we exceed the capacit=
y gained by the decrease in block time=2C we can then look to bump up block=
 size because hopefully 20mbps connections will be baseline by then etc.</d=
iv>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<hr>
<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 11pt=3B font=
-weight: bold=3B">From:
</span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 11pt=
=3B"><a href=3D"mailto:jim@ergophobia.org">Jim Phillips</a></span><br>
<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 11pt=3B font=
-weight: bold=3B">Sent:
</span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 11pt=
=3B">=E2=80=8E26/=E2=80=8E05/=E2=80=8E2015 12:53 PM</span><br>
<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 11pt=3B font=
-weight: bold=3B">To:
</span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 11pt=
=3B"><a href=3D"mailto:thyshizzle@outlook.com">Thy Shizzle</a></span><br>
<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 11pt=3B font=
-weight: bold=3B">Cc:
</span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 11pt=
=3B"><a href=3D"mailto:mike@plan99.net">Mike Hearn</a>=3B
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin Dev</a=
></span><br>
<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 11pt=3B font=
-weight: bold=3B">Subject:
</span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size: 11pt=
=3B">Re: [Bitcoin-development] No Bitcoin For You</span><br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Frankly I'm good with either way. I'm definitely in favor =
of faster confirmation times.&nbsp=3B
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The important thing is that we need to increase the amount of transact=
ions that get into blocks over a given time frame to a point that is in lin=
e with what current technology can handle. We can handle WAY more than we a=
re doing right now. The Bitcoin
 network is not currently Disk=2C CPU=2C or RAM bound.. Not even close. The=
 metric we're closest to being restricted by would be Network bandwidth. I =
live in a developing country. 2Mbps is a typical broadband speed here (alth=
ough 5Mbps and 10Mbps connections are
 affordable). That equates to about 17MB per minute=2C or 170x more capacit=
y than what I need to receive a full copy of the blockchain if I only talk =
to one peer. If I relay to say 10 peers=2C I can still handle 17x larger bl=
ock sizes on a slow 2Mbps connection.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Also=2C even if we reduce the difficulty so that we're doing 1MB block=
s every minute=2C that's still only 10MB every 10 minutes. Eventually we're=
 going to have to increase that=2C and we can only reduce the confirmation =
period so much. I think someone once said
 30 seconds or so is about the shortest period you can practically achieve.=
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all">
<div>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_signature">
<div>--
<div><b>James G. Phillips IV</b>&nbsp=3B<a href=3D"https://plus.google.com/=
u/0/113107039501292625391/posts" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"font-size:x-sma=
ll"><img src=3D"https://ssl.gstatic.com/images/icons/gplus-16.png"></a>&nbs=
p=3B<a href=3D"http://www.linkedin.com/in/ergophobe" target=3D"_blank"><img=
 src=3D"http://developer.linkedin.com/sites/default/files/LinkedIn_Logo16px=
.png"></a></div>
</div>
<div><font size=3D"1"><i>&quot=3BDon't bunt. Aim out of the ball park. Aim =
for the company of immortals.&quot=3B -- David Ogilvy<br>
</i></font>
<div><font size=3D"1"><br>
</font></div>
</div>
<div><font size=3D"1"><img src=3D"http://findicons.com/files/icons/1156/fug=
ue/16/leaf.png">&nbsp=3B<em style=3D"background-color:rgb(255=2C255=2C255)=
=3B font-family:verdana=2Cgeneva=2Csans-serif=3B line-height:16px=3B color:=
green">This message was created with 100% recycled electrons.
 Please think twice before printing.</em></font></div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_quote">On Mon=2C May 25=2C 2015 at 9:30 PM=2C Thy Shi=
zzle <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt=3B<a href=3D"mailto:thyshizzle@outlook.com" target=3D"_blank">thyshizzl=
e@outlook.com</a>&gt=3B</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"x_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=3B border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid=3B padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size:11pt">Nah don't=
 make blocks 20mb=2C then you are slowing down block propagation and blowin=
g out conf tikes as a result. Just decrease the time it takes to make a 1mb=
 block=2C then you still see the same propagation
 times today and just increase the transaction throughput.</div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<hr>
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size:11pt=3B font-w=
eight:bold">From:
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size:11pt"><=
a href=3D"mailto:jim@ergophobia.org" target=3D"_blank">Jim Phillips</a></sp=
an><br>
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size:11pt=3B font-w=
eight:bold">Sent:
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size:11pt">=
=E2=80=8E26/=E2=80=8E05/=E2=80=8E2015 12:27 PM</span><br>
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size:11pt=3B font-w=
eight:bold">To:
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size:11pt"><=
a href=3D"mailto:mike@plan99.net" target=3D"_blank">Mike Hearn</a></span><b=
r>
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size:11pt=3B font-w=
eight:bold">Cc:
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size:11pt"><=
a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_blan=
k">Bitcoin Dev</a></span><br>
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size:11pt=3B font-w=
eight:bold">Subject:
</span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri=2Csans-serif=3B font-size:11pt">R=
e: [Bitcoin-development] No Bitcoin For You</span><br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"x_h5">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div><br>
<div>On Mon=2C May 25=2C 2015 at 1:36 PM=2C Mike Hearn <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t=3B<a href=3D"mailto:mike@plan99.net" target=3D"_blank">mike@plan99.net</a=
>&gt=3B</span> wrote:</div>
<div><br>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex=3B border-left-width:1px=3B b=
order-left-color:rgb(204=2C204=2C204)=3B border-left-style:solid=3B padding=
-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>This meme about datacenter-sized nodes has to die. The Bitcoin wiki is=
 down right now=2C but I showed years ago that you could keep up with VISA =
on a single well specced server with today's technology. Only people living=
 in a dreamworld think that Bitcoin
 might actually have to match that level of transaction demand with today's=
 hardware. As noted previously=2C &quot=3Btoo many users&quot=3B is simply =
not a problem Bitcoin has .... and may never have!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<div>... And will certainly NEVER have if we can't solve the capacity probl=
em SOON.&nbsp=3B</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In a former life=2C I was a capacity planner for Bank of America's mid=
-range server group. We had one hard and fast rule. When you are typically =
exceeding 75% of capacity on a given metric=2C it's time to expand capacity=
. Period. You don't do silly things
 like adjusting the business model to disincentivize use. Unless there's so=
me flaw in the system and it's leaking resources=2C if usage has increased =
to the point where you are at or near the limits of capacity=2C you expand =
capacity. It's as simple as that=2C and
 I've found that same rule fits quite well in a number of systems.&nbsp=3B<=
/div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In Bitcoin=2C we're not leaking resources. There's no flaw. The system=
 is performing as intended. Usage is increasing because it works so well=2C=
 and there is huge potential for future growth as we identify more uses and=
 attract more users. There might be
 a few technical things we can do to reduce consumption=2C but the metric w=
e're concerned with right now is how many transactions we can fit in a bloc=
k. We've broken through the 75% marker and are regularly bumping up against=
 the 100% limit.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It is time to stop debating this and take action to expand capacity. T=
he only questions that should remain are how much capacity do we add=2C and=
 how soon can we do it. Given that most existing computer systems and netwo=
rks can easily handle 20MB blocks
 every 10 minutes=2C and given that that will increase capacity 20-fold=2C =
I can't think of a single reason why we can't go to 20MB as soon as humanly=
 possible. And in a few years=2C when the average block size is over 15MB=
=2C we bump it up again to as high as we can
 go then without pushing typical computers or networks beyond their capacit=
y. We can worry about ways to slow down growth without affecting the useful=
ness of Bitcoin as we get closer to the hard technical limits on our capaci=
ty.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And you know what else? If miners need higher fees to accommodate the =
costs of bigger blocks=2C they can configure their nodes to only mine trans=
actions with higher fees.. Let the miners decide how to charge enough to pa=
y for their costs. We don't need to
 cripple the network just for them.</div>
<div><br clear=3D"all">
<div>
<div>
<div>--
<div><b>James G. Phillips IV</b>&nbsp=3B<a href=3D"https://plus.google.com/=
u/0/113107039501292625391/posts" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"font-size:x-sma=
ll"><img src=3D"https://ssl.gstatic.com/images/icons/gplus-16.png"></a>&nbs=
p=3B</div>
</div>
<div><font size=3D"1"><i>&quot=3BDon't bunt. Aim out of the ball park. Aim =
for the company of immortals.&quot=3B -- David Ogilvy<br>
</i></font>
<div><font size=3D"1"><br>
</font></div>
</div>
<div><font size=3D"1"><img src=3D"http://findicons.com/files/icons/1156/fug=
ue/16/leaf.png">&nbsp=3B<em style=3D"font-family:verdana=2Cgeneva=2Csans-se=
rif=3B line-height:16px=3B color:green">This message was created with 100% =
recycled electrons. Please think twice before printing.</em></font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1"><em style=3D"font-family:verdana=2Cgeneva=2Csans-seri=
f=3B line-height:16px=3B color:green"><br>
</em></font></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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