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From: Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com>
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Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 10:43:06 -0700
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To: Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail.com>
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Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core and hard forks
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> On Jul 23, 2015, at 9:28 AM, Gavin Andresen via bitcoin-dev =
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>=20
> I'd really like to move from "IMPOSSIBLE because...  (electrum hasn't =
been optimized
> (by the way: you should run on SSDs, LevelDB isn't designed for =
spinning disks),
> what if the network is attacked?  (attacked HOW???), current p2p =
network is using
> the simplest, stupidest possible block propagation algorithm...)"
>=20
> ... to "lets work together and work through the problems and scale it =
up."

Let=E2=80=99s be absolutely clear about one thing - block size increases =
are *not* about scaling the network. Can we please stop promoting this =
falsehood? It doesn=E2=80=99t matter by what number we multiply the =
block size=E2=80=A6we can NEVER satisfy the full demand if we insist on =
every single transaction from every single person everywhere in the =
world being on the blockchain=E2=80=A6it=E2=80=99s just absurd.

Increasing block size only temporarily addresses one significant issue - =
how to postpone having to deal with transaction fees, which by design, =
are how the cost of operating the Bitcoin network (which is already very =
expensive) is supposed to be paid for ultimately. Suggesting we avoid =
dealing with this constitutes a new economic policy - dealing with it is =
the default economic policy we=E2=80=99ve all known about from the =
beginning=E2=80=A6so please stop claiming otherwise.

> On Jul 23, 2015, at 9:50 AM, cipher anthem via bitcoin-dev =
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>=20
> Why not help on a project that actually seems to offer great =
scalability like the lightning network? There have been great progress =
there.


Exactly. There=E2=80=99s been tremendous progress here in addressing =
scalability, yet I don=E2=80=99t see you participating in that =
discussion, Gavin.

> On Jul 23, 2015, at 5:17 AM, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n via bitcoin-dev =
<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>=20
> But it seems to me that the "not now side" has no centralization
> concerns at all and their true position is "not ever hit the blocksize
> limit", that's the only explanation I can find to their lack of
> answers to the "when do you think we should allow users to notice that
> there's a limit in the blocksize to guarantee that the system can be
> decentralized?".

I agree with what you=E2=80=99re saying, Jorge=E2=80=A6but It=E2=80=99s =
even worse than that. The July 4th fork illustrated that the security =
model of the network itself could be at risk from the increasing costs =
in validation causing people to rely on others to validate for =
them=E2=80=A6and increasing block size only makes the problem worse.

- Eric Lombrozo

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jul 23, 2015, at 9:28 AM, Gavin Andresen via bitcoin-dev =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">I'd really like to move =
from "IMPOSSIBLE because... &nbsp;(electrum hasn't been =
optimized</div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">(by the way: you should run on SSDs, LevelDB isn't designed =
for spinning disks),</div><div style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;" class=3D"">what if the network is attacked? &nbsp;(attacked =
HOW???), current p2p network is using</div><div style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">the simplest, stupidest =
possible block propagation algorithm...)"</div><div style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">... to "lets work =
together and work through the problems and scale it =
up."</div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">Let=E2=80=
=99s be absolutely clear about one thing - block size increases are =
*not* about scaling the network. Can we please stop promoting this =
falsehood? It doesn=E2=80=99t matter by what number we multiply the =
block size=E2=80=A6we can NEVER satisfy the full demand if we insist on =
every single transaction from every single person everywhere in the =
world being on the blockchain=E2=80=A6it=E2=80=99s just =
absurd.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Increasing block size only temporarily addresses one =
significant issue - how to postpone having to deal with transaction =
fees, which by design, are how the cost of operating the Bitcoin network =
(which is already very expensive) is supposed to be paid for ultimately. =
Suggesting we avoid dealing with this constitutes a new economic policy =
- dealing with it is the default economic policy we=E2=80=99ve all known =
about from the beginning=E2=80=A6so please stop claiming =
otherwise.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Jul 23, 2015, at 9:50 AM, cipher anthem via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Verdana; float: none; display: inline =
!important;">Why not help on a project that actually seems to offer =
great scalability like the lightning network? There have been great =
progress there.</span></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Verdana; float: none; display: inline =
!important;"><br class=3D""></span></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Verdana" class=3D"">Exactly. There=E2=80=99s been tremendous =
progress here in addressing scalability, yet I don=E2=80=99t see you =
participating in that discussion, Gavin.</font></div><div class=3D""><font=
 face=3D"Verdana" class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul 23, =
2015, at 5:17 AM, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"float: none; display: inline !important;">But it seems to me =
that the "not now side" has no centralization</span><br class=3D""><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"float: none; display: inline !important;">concerns =
at all and their true position is "not ever hit the blocksize</span><br =
class=3D""><span class=3D"" style=3D"float: none; display: inline =
!important;">limit", that's the only explanation I can find to their =
lack of</span><br class=3D""><span class=3D"" style=3D"float: none; =
display: inline !important;">answers to the "when do you think we should =
allow users to notice that</span><br class=3D""><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"float: none; display: inline !important;">there's a limit in =
the blocksize to guarantee that the system can be</span><br =
class=3D""><span class=3D"" style=3D"float: none; display: inline =
!important;">decentralized?".</span></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"" style=3D"float: none; display: inline =
!important;"><br class=3D""></span></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"float: none; display: inline !important;">I agree with what =
you=E2=80=99re saying, Jorge=E2=80=A6but It=E2=80=99s even worse than =
that. The July 4th fork illustrated that the security model of the =
network itself could be at risk from the increasing costs in validation =
causing people to rely on others to validate for them=E2=80=A6and =
increasing block size only makes the problem worse.</span></div><div =
class=3D""><span class=3D"" style=3D"float: none; display: inline =
!important;"><br class=3D""></span></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"float: none; display: inline !important;">- Eric =
Lombrozo</span></div></body></html>=

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