1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
|
Return-Path: <vitteaymeric@gmail.com>
Received: from whitealder.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [140.211.166.138])
by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74E38C016E
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Fri, 5 Jun 2020 10:10:22 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by whitealder.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62BDF877E8
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Fri, 5 Jun 2020 10:10:22 +0000 (UTC)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
Received: from whitealder.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
by localhost (.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
with ESMTP id 4ILHGsYA+u-T
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Fri, 5 Jun 2020 10:10:19 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6
Received: from mail-wr1-f50.google.com (mail-wr1-f50.google.com
[209.85.221.50])
by whitealder.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 484E787843
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Fri, 5 Jun 2020 10:10:19 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-wr1-f50.google.com with SMTP id e1so9158826wrt.5
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Fri, 05 Jun 2020 03:10:19 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025;
h=subject:to:references:from:autocrypt:message-id:date:user-agent
:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language;
bh=MRZUv014tPE+5lNwfP6T2gvRpVBnWBMv+Rk/N70sM3g=;
b=D2l0EXrGR4cLjfyZg01t17y3aHid49AcBtG0R0K39Nq0c3hJaLq1bco5AOB2ebRupP
3qW19mtyznTTAalS/7U5ieHdb7NBadA0lDj4SgGD0eNw5Au6pmTG5NUvhdgXc/bpWMwn
geC9FfseJ1jC9tIJeZx+qBZAKg5eU8i9xeqnenra7i7cNRs6lrDXd/VgUVFHMuuiOerD
f1ZwZH9WW5ZpvFK5Dvj/0fgwvlDHG1u5+39yfQejuC4K8rnmkEejw8NkA+P7/KNkaWO0
ohmlrSN5mlm+Ulr5sYE8ntyjvvAQMzNioFDc1tvQCuL/+FaPgCODaZXRjsNbB8IYi/cT
G+/g==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20161025;
h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:autocrypt:message-id
:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language;
bh=MRZUv014tPE+5lNwfP6T2gvRpVBnWBMv+Rk/N70sM3g=;
b=GfM94VwDZ8ZX7PsWsPcnCaFCDSvrgJx3hegpZmVAePEPnABPqR03khZOFm2tYDi+fN
EXa8jMkeVGfpgzMXaGBO1Zmc1j6hYaZnVuqOzUHgTzJinvgOyXwMMwT1qUyLHi/5soeU
QhND/NMyJmAjd5//G3wBnm+x0C66V20JVLHTw+uUB2Orfy1JZZYeP2apdgDTv8t5FiWo
YTsbSgrmJee4ZqEGxDY07Pf2VZlgeJzSYFhG4eUXxjG8EbFagZ9/Q81Zu+oj9D5muNY6
z4inQDCPOGI3jm0LoPckmOU5s1i1DDrDdlVbGQ80J06tXC9UpjNhkyzzhfqE1RyAKRm1
g7rQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530jQqy9Nen4JXPEbDObWYrIBEHYSXLA8okSmy0ow6m+gdNPnxSC
MxN4T/QIYouuqQNcD+Y0aFE=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwHAu+TSKYPemQSRyA7K0VTuwXlsob5JoQQpomPF/HeSHZ20R5Xcgy9EcuC8VnzqDxmf/FaRA==
X-Received: by 2002:adf:c44e:: with SMTP id a14mr8299419wrg.50.1591351817750;
Fri, 05 Jun 2020 03:10:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2a01:cb1d:44:6500:9d6d:71b2:cb71:cb17?
([2a01:cb1d:44:6500:9d6d:71b2:cb71:cb17])
by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id k14sm11264486wrq.97.2020.06.05.03.10.16
(version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128);
Fri, 05 Jun 2020 03:10:16 -0700 (PDT)
To: ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com>,
Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
Gleb Naumenko <naumenko.gs@gmail.com>
References: <2e8fba65-f7fa-4c37-a318-222547e25a06@Spark>
<9e4dfaa7-895a-48a1-8116-eaafc80da34f@Spark>
<2phhD75B8ww3hFQ8Do039wAIlW8EVOjUeiedm-JtIek-TEnVocYSx-untchGrO3VoRLoPzinVAG95UN1yR3CadNWBJGSu19vJpFJ_yN-wZY=@protonmail.com>
From: Aymeric Vitte <vitteaymeric@gmail.com>
Autocrypt: addr=vitteaymeric@gmail.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata=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Message-ID: <ff416daf-a5cf-abe9-ad0f-77ec36d3ea56@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2020 12:10:20 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/68.3.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <2phhD75B8ww3hFQ8Do039wAIlW8EVOjUeiedm-JtIek-TEnVocYSx-untchGrO3VoRLoPzinVAG95UN1yR3CadNWBJGSu19vJpFJ_yN-wZY=@protonmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="------------8BAE6BBD95013BBD1152F83E"
Content-Language: fr
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Time-dilation Attacks on the Lightning Network
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2020 10:10:22 -0000
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------8BAE6BBD95013BBD1152F83E
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Le 04/06/2020 à 04:58, ZmnSCPxj via bitcoin-dev a écrit :
>> [Tor is tricky](https://arxiv.org/abs/1410.6079) too
> Since the issue here is that eclipsing of Bitcoin nodes is risky, it strikes me that a mitigation would be to run your Bitcoin fullnode on clearnet while running your Lightning node over Tor.
> Eclipsing the Lightning node (but not the Bitcoin fullnode it depends on) "only" loses you the ability to pay, receive, or route (and thereby earn forwarding fees), but as long as your blockchain view is clear, it should be fine.
>
> Of course, the Lightning node could still be correlated with the Bitcoin node when transactions are broadcast with the attached Bitcoin node (as noted in the paper).
> Instead the Lightning node should probably connect, over Tor, to some random Bitcoin fullnodes / Electrum servers and broadcast txes to them.
>
> And this seems to tie with what you propose: that the LN node should use a different view-fullnode from the broadcast-fullnode.
>
The issue each time there are discussions/research linking to Tor is
that it is biased since the beginning because based on a wrong
postulate: using the Tor network
I will not elaborate on this again, it's an obvious very bad idea to use
the Tor network for bitcoin
It's not a bad idea to use the Tor protocol with no story of exit nodes
and hidden services, linking again to:
https://github.com/Ayms/node-Tor#phase-4-and-phase-5
And new link: http://www.peersm.com/Convergence-2020.pdf "A universal
and generic architecture to anonymize any application or protocol and
turn it into an independent decentralized p2p network inside browsers
and servers, with browsers acting as servers"
LN and bitcoin nodes would be relays and/or RDV points and/or clients
and serving parties, some Tor network nodes could be used in the middle
also (relays only) but in any case sybils/eclipse attacks become much
more difficult to perform (or unlikely depending on how the peer
discovery system is designed)
bitcoin | node-Tor |bitcoin and LN.pipe(node-Tor)
Then question for possible future tests: is there a simple way to pipe
the bitcoin protocol via stdin/stdout? (the socks interface could be
used but we already saw that it did raise issues)
--
Move your coins by yourself (browser version): https://peersm.com/wallet
Bitcoin transactions made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transactions
Zcash wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets
Bitcoin wallets made simple: https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets
Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: http://peersm.com/getblocklist
Check the 10 M passwords list: http://peersm.com/findmyass
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: http://torrent-live.org
Peersm : http://www.peersm.com
torrent-live: https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live
node-Tor : https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor
GitHub : https://www.github.com/Ayms
--------------8BAE6BBD95013BBD1152F83E
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 04/06/2020 à 04:58, ZmnSCPxj via
bitcoin-dev a écrit :<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2phhD75B8ww3hFQ8Do039wAIlW8EVOjUeiedm-JtIek-TEnVocYSx-untchGrO3VoRLoPzinVAG95UN1yR3CadNWBJGSu19vJpFJ_yN-wZY=@protonmail.com">
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">[Tor is tricky](<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://arxiv.org/abs/1410.6079" moz-do-not-send="true">https://arxiv.org/abs/1410.6079</a>) too
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Since the issue here is that eclipsing of Bitcoin nodes is risky, it strikes me that a mitigation would be to run your Bitcoin fullnode on clearnet while running your Lightning node over Tor.
Eclipsing the Lightning node (but not the Bitcoin fullnode it depends on) "only" loses you the ability to pay, receive, or route (and thereby earn forwarding fees), but as long as your blockchain view is clear, it should be fine.
Of course, the Lightning node could still be correlated with the Bitcoin node when transactions are broadcast with the attached Bitcoin node (as noted in the paper).
Instead the Lightning node should probably connect, over Tor, to some random Bitcoin fullnodes / Electrum servers and broadcast txes to them.
And this seems to tie with what you propose: that the LN node should use a different view-fullnode from the broadcast-fullnode.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>The issue each time there are discussions/research linking to Tor
is that it is biased since the beginning because based on a wrong
postulate: using the Tor network</p>
<p>I will not elaborate on this again, it's an obvious very bad idea
to use the Tor network for bitcoin</p>
<p>It's not a bad idea to use the Tor protocol with no story of exit
nodes and hidden services, linking again to:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/Ayms/node-Tor#phase-4-and-phase-5">https://github.com/Ayms/node-Tor#phase-4-and-phase-5</a></p>
<p>And new link: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.peersm.com/Convergence-2020.pdf">http://www.peersm.com/Convergence-2020.pdf</a> "A
universal and generic architecture to anonymize any application or
protocol and turn it into an independent decentralized p2p network
inside browsers and servers, with browsers acting as servers"</p>
<p>LN and bitcoin nodes would be relays and/or RDV points and/or
clients and serving parties, some Tor network nodes could be used
in the middle also (relays only) but in any case sybils/eclipse
attacks become much more difficult to perform (or unlikely
depending on how the peer discovery system is designed)</p>
<p>bitcoin | node-Tor |bitcoin and LN.pipe(node-Tor)</p>
<p>Then question for possible future tests: is there a simple way to
pipe the bitcoin protocol via stdin/stdout? (the socks interface
could be used but we already saw that it did raise issues)<br>
</p>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
</pre>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Move your coins by yourself (browser version): <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://peersm.com/wallet">https://peersm.com/wallet</a>
Bitcoin transactions made simple: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transactions">https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-transactions</a>
Zcash wallets made simple: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets">https://github.com/Ayms/zcash-wallets</a>
Bitcoin wallets made simple: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets">https://github.com/Ayms/bitcoin-wallets</a>
Get the torrent dynamic blocklist: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://peersm.com/getblocklist">http://peersm.com/getblocklist</a>
Check the 10 M passwords list: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://peersm.com/findmyass">http://peersm.com/findmyass</a>
Anti-spies and private torrents, dynamic blocklist: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://torrent-live.org">http://torrent-live.org</a>
Peersm : <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.peersm.com">http://www.peersm.com</a>
torrent-live: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live">https://github.com/Ayms/torrent-live</a>
node-Tor : <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor">https://www.github.com/Ayms/node-Tor</a>
GitHub : <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.github.com/Ayms">https://www.github.com/Ayms</a></pre>
</body>
</html>
--------------8BAE6BBD95013BBD1152F83E--
|
