1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
284
285
286
287
288
289
290
291
292
293
294
295
296
297
298
299
300
301
302
303
304
305
306
307
308
309
310
311
312
313
314
315
316
317
318
319
320
321
322
323
324
325
326
327
328
329
330
331
332
333
334
335
336
337
338
339
340
341
342
343
344
345
346
347
348
349
350
351
352
353
354
355
356
357
358
359
360
361
362
363
364
365
366
367
368
369
370
371
372
373
374
375
376
377
378
379
380
381
382
383
384
385
386
387
388
389
390
391
392
393
394
395
396
397
398
399
400
401
402
403
404
405
406
407
408
409
410
411
412
413
414
415
416
417
418
419
420
421
422
423
424
425
426
427
428
429
430
431
432
433
|
Return-Path: <cryptaxe@gmail.com>
Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org
[172.17.192.35])
by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 66807901
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Wed, 12 Jul 2017 22:13:17 +0000 (UTC)
X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6
Received: from mail-pg0-f50.google.com (mail-pg0-f50.google.com [74.125.83.50])
by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C81486
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Wed, 12 Jul 2017 22:13:16 +0000 (UTC)
Received: by mail-pg0-f50.google.com with SMTP id k14so19509448pgr.0
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Wed, 12 Jul 2017 15:13:16 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025;
h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version
:in-reply-to:content-language;
bh=7vujbtPMHwkQklUC5527QjH387y2wAYinBVh8Yfz2ME=;
b=ZH7ao61icKpxaXFDvsThe+K8nY38/FcSpYEmq3A+vrtuMkYyX/jJfjy8HdFWMDMBpl
XHS3vUfsIfb9VGXC9sr7YG5mDEjDg6Kr3wSQVXFWJPmc6DipcZ3DHw8AeDDkZfkaNLhB
kfxqI/CMyETG9r/Jak+yQswalugZnblRwQTdei/3KC+ZUzPoVuPtKRA3nG/1hd1YQKtU
jAfhCr3TuTDlKFBgmwFosWQkJwe8J9lqEGx7BbP4gq7rF0dfAbmDLzbbwMvNxRWUjcSw
on5PZZmrJf/UMlZhSMdZVqojUTx2wjtlXkMJFiOBBRuByxe9rtQA3yfj1JMcPBHnfyDX
aLAQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20161025;
h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date
:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language;
bh=7vujbtPMHwkQklUC5527QjH387y2wAYinBVh8Yfz2ME=;
b=C6vJ3Vb826l2VS+Y5f2Xa96JNnOOPeyp+zRvm9APVbYezWMMVJeRTjexP/Bs+bzkPA
D5/6912r4lrPCr96ffRFtd/2l6+ZV7cZjaRCh7geO4vTUh5202saYxwJYZC4bBTtDze5
9GxVX486OL1N5+ouV0FnQ0W1NWVOXMPVidGXSD0PO+6MqQFgi9qy5RaLsg9xHVeVv9o4
hwCGfncbYJKfQHyGnQ00obm3W1xcLKAUBgZKcS2p36b0BNgRPkWr4r1dy7wABXZamAGt
ZNU2YeKFFoa+Eup4becoOZAStT5UFSUk3l4xo0HxmJxOoDugiZvnUFcQXAa0+7f/XR/4
IcZA==
X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw112Iv5FVwGpRqM7fLzjEfL/rEy4SEpVDAJbROgcVRdK7ERhDBnrR
H4ErWx/XwNJ6zbHTjzz2Mw==
X-Received: by 10.84.176.100 with SMTP id u91mr6337479plb.182.1499897595828;
Wed, 12 Jul 2017 15:13:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.3] (c-50-188-181-7.hsd1.or.comcast.net.
[50.188.181.7]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id
s11sm6586717pgr.53.2017.07.12.15.13.14
(version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128);
Wed, 12 Jul 2017 15:13:14 -0700 (PDT)
To: Tao Effect <contact@taoeffect.com>,
Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
References: <0119661e-a11a-6d4b-c9ec-fd510bd4f144@gmail.com>
<CAAS2fgRDVgdMYZo776iLwbm23aGNDWL85YgD=yF=M-0_vqJ5nQ@mail.gmail.com>
<1c1d06a9-2e9f-5b2d-42b7-d908ada4b09e@gmail.com>
<A030CDEA-CB0F-40BF-9404-6BD091537BE1@taoeffect.com>
<08078429-089f-9315-2f76-a08121c5378c@gmail.com>
<D30D8852-EFF4-4AB3-9B97-53D622A1440A@taoeffect.com>
<CAGL6+mHNMF9-v_6_ruvvhOenXCCsVhoG3aHkGvioOb-a9fokCQ@mail.gmail.com>
<26FE0468-7049-4BE0-948F-D5E40FE2CBAC@taoeffect.com>
<CAGL6+mGEBhn3fjTN5APX3kQjEFjGsG_2LEL_LgXiPOP=xoAZuQ@mail.gmail.com>
<18A9E11A-07B2-48B4-B4E7-66A563A97A13@taoeffect.com>
<37ed4927-d13b-f34d-a13c-9aaa55ea426b@gmail.com>
<2AB8B976-5E62-4B1A-9B1B-0109EA4F606F@taoeffect.com>
From: CryptAxe <cryptaxe@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c7ffff44-10f2-51c6-17d6-7f00b8c09c4f@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 15:07:47 -0700
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/52.2.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <2AB8B976-5E62-4B1A-9B1B-0109EA4F606F@taoeffect.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="------------7771C38132529B7D86D943FD"
Content-Language: en-US
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED,
DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE,
RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1
X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on
smtp1.linux-foundation.org
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 22:27:57 +0000
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Updating the Scaling Roadmap
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Jul 2017 22:13:17 -0000
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------7771C38132529B7D86D943FD
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
You guys are both right that it is a different security model, with the
important distinction that it is opt-in. What I disagree with about what
you said is only that we are encouraging more risky behavior by adding
consensus rules via softfork. There are additional risks with
drivechains, but not because of how the new consensus rules would be
added (it would be the same risk as the P2SH softfork).
What's been explained to me a few times is that the
anyone-can-spend-ness of new transaction types that depend on softforked
consensus rules are exponentially less risky to the point that it is
infeasible to steal them as blocks are added to the chain that activated
the soft fork. I believe that Luke-Jr and Lopp are both very good at
explaining this and I know that Lopp has actually done some research as
to the cost of stealing these outputs. I can't remember the link but you
might find that with a google. One of them might even chime in and
explain that I'm totally wrong again!
Sorry for being a bit heated in my last response.
On 07/12/2017 02:55 PM, Tao Effect wrote:
> That's a fair point, I confused anyone-can-spend with anyone-can-pay [1=
].
>
> Isn't it different in the case of P2SH and SegWit, don't full nodes
> validate the script?
>
> In other words, miners don't have complete control over the coins,
> full nodes keep a check on them.
>
> At least that was my understanding, and if that's not the case then it
> doesn't make sense to me why Pieter would earlier in this thread
> object to Drivechain on the grounds that it's a different security mode=
l.
>
> - Greg
>
> [1] https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@jl777/bitcoin-spinoff-fork-how-to-make=
-a-clean-fork-without-any-replay-attack-and-no-blockchain-visible-changes=
>
>
> --
> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also
> sharing with the NSA.
>
>> On Jul 12, 2017, at 12:54 PM, CryptAxe via bitcoin-dev
>> <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Are we just pulling numbers out of thin air now? https://p2sh.info/
>> BIP16 for example is widely used. It would be difficult to find a
>> single wallet that doesn't support BIP16 I have no idea what you are
>> talking about.
>>
>>
>> On 07/12/2017 12:42 PM, Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>>> ...
>>> In the present situation, anyone-can-spend outputs are used by
>>> probably less than 0.1% of users, and most software doesn't even
>>> allow for the possibility.
>>>
>>> In Drivechain it's *encouraged-by-design*!
>>>
>>> - Greg
>>>
>>> --
>>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also
>>> sharing with the NSA.
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
--------------7771C38132529B7D86D943FD
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
</head>
<body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
<p>You guys are both right that it is a different security model,
with the important distinction that it is opt-in. What I disagree
with about what you said is only that we are encouraging more
risky behavior by adding consensus rules via softfork. There are
additional risks with drivechains, but not because of how the new
consensus rules would be added (it would be the same risk as the
P2SH softfork). <br>
</p>
<p>What's been explained to me a few times is that the
anyone-can-spend-ness of new transaction types that depend on
softforked consensus rules are exponentially less risky to the
point that it is infeasible to steal them as blocks are added to
the chain that activated the soft fork. I believe that Luke-Jr and
Lopp are both very good at explaining this and I know that Lopp
has actually done some research as to the cost of stealing these
outputs. I can't remember the link but you might find that with a
google. One of them might even chime in and explain that I'm
totally wrong again!<br>
</p>
<p>Sorry for being a bit heated in my last response.</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>On 07/12/2017 02:55 PM, Tao Effect wrote:<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:2AB8B976-5E62-4B1A-9B1B-0109EA4F606F@taoeffect.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
That's a fair point, I confused anyone-can-spend
with anyone-can-pay [1].
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Isn't it different in the case of P2SH and SegWit,
don't full nodes validate the script?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In other words, miners don't have complete control
over the coins, full nodes keep a check on them.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">At least that was my understanding, and if that's
not the case then it doesn't make sense to me why Pieter would
earlier in this thread object to Drivechain on the grounds that
it's a different security model.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">- Greg</div>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">[1] <a
href="https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@jl777/bitcoin-spinoff-fork-how-to-make-a-clean-fork-without-any-replay-attack-and-no-blockchain-visible-changes"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://steemit.com/bitcoin/@jl777/bitcoin-spinoff-fork-how-to-make-a-clean-fork-without-any-replay-attack-and-no-blockchain-visible-changes</a>
<div class="">
<div class="">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric:
normal; font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=""><br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
--</span><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric:
normal; font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">
<span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric:
normal; font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class="">Please do not email
me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing</span><span
style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric:
normal; font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal;
orphans: 2; widows: 2;" class=""> with the NSA.</span>
</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Jul 12, 2017, at 12:54 PM, CryptAxe
via bitcoin-dev <<a
href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252" class="">
<div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" class="">
<p class="">Are we just pulling numbers out of
thin air now? <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://p2sh.info/"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://p2sh.info/</a>
BIP16 for example is widely used. It would be
difficult to find a single wallet that doesn't
support BIP16 I have no idea what you are
talking about.<br class="">
</p>
<br class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 07/12/2017 12:42
PM, Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev wrote:<br
class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:18A9E11A-07B2-48B4-B4E7-66A563A97A13@taoeffect.com"
class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
class="">
<div class="">...<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In the present situation,
anyone-can-spend outputs are used by probably
less than 0.1% of users, and most software
doesn't even allow for the possibility.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">In Drivechain it's
*encouraged-by-design*!<br class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">- Greg</div>
<div class="">
<div class=""> <span style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal;
font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; widows:
2;" class=""><br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
--</span><br style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; text-align: start; text-indent:
0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal;
font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; widows:
2;" class="">
<span style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal;
font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; widows:
2;" class="">Please do not email me
anything that you are not comfortable
also sharing</span><span
style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-position: normal;
font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal;
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; widows:
2;" class=""> with the NSA.</span> </div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
</div>
_______________________________________________<br
class="">
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br class="">
<a
href="mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br
class="">
<a
href="https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev"
class="" moz-do-not-send="true">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br
class="">
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>
--------------7771C38132529B7D86D943FD--
|
