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From: Davide Cavion <davide@cedivad.com>
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Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a
	Neutral Competent Entity
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Hi,

I just wanted to let everyone know that every email is also archived at =
bitcoin-development.narkive.com =
<http://bitcoin-development.narkive.com/>, where you can find everything =
since the beginning of the list (June 2011). That should answer to =
Andy=E2=80=99s concern about the older messages not being archived =
anywhere but on sourceforge.

Davide


> On 14 Jun 2015, at 23:59, Adam Back <adam@cypherspace.org> wrote:
>=20
> It might be as well to keep the archive but disable new posts as
> otherwise we create bit-rot for people who linked to posts on
> sourceforge.
>=20
> The list is also archived on mail-archive though.
> =
https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/
>=20
> Adam
>=20
> On 14 June 2015 at 22:55, Andy Schroder <info@andyschroder.com> wrote:
>> Hello,
>>=20
>> I'd support moving to a Linux Foundation e-mail list. I am also =
against
>> google groups. I agree that the gesture of moving indicates that =
SourceForge
>> is not playing nice on other issues and that moving this list shows =
their
>> behavior is being acknowledged.
>>=20
>> I understand your reason for wanting to delete the Source Forge =
account
>> (after reading the links). However, the only problem with that is =
that the
>> SourceForge archive is the oldest one I've found with some early =
messages
>> from Satoshi. Myself finding Bitcoin after its inception, as well as =
this
>> mailing list even later on, it's nice to be able to review the =
archives.
>> SourceForge's interface to those archives is pretty bad though. I'm =
not sure
>> if there is any way to get older messages archived on sites like =
gmane or
>> mail-archive? Does anyone know? You mentioned importing the list =
archive as
>> part of the migration plan, but I guess is this easy to do from =
SourceForge?
>>=20
>>=20
>> Andy Schroder
>>=20
>> On 06/14/2015 06:12 AM, Warren Togami Jr. wrote:
>>=20
>> Discomfort with Sourceforge
>>=20
>> For a while now people have been expressing concern about =
Sourceforge's
>> continued hosting of the bitcoin-dev mailing list.=C3=82  Downloads =
were moved
>> completely to bitcoin.org after the Sept 2014 hacking incident of the =
SF
>> project account.=C3=82  The company's behavior and perceived =
stability have been
>> growing to be increasingly questionable.
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/08/gimp_dumps_sourceforge_over_dodgy_=
ads_and_installer
>>=20
>> November 2013: GIMP flees SourceForge over dodgy ads and installer
>>=20
>> https://lwn.net/Articles/646118/
>>=20
>> May 28th, 2015: SourceForge replacing GIMP Windows downloads
>>=20
>> http://seclists.org/nmap-dev/2015/q2/194
>>=20
>> June 3rd, 2015: Sourceforge hijacked nmap's old site and downloads.
>>=20
>>=20
>> When this topic came up over the past two years, it seemed that most =
people
>> agreed it would be a good idea to move.=C3=82  Someone always =
suggests Google
>> Groups as the replacement host.=C3=82  Google is quickly shot down as =
too
>> controversial in this community, and it becomes an even more =
difficult
>> question as to who else should host it.=C3=82  Realizing this is not =
so simple,
>> discussion then dies off until the next time somebody brings it up.
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/bitcoin-development/thread/194312=
7.DBnVxmfOIh%401337h4x0r/#msg34192607
>>=20
>> Somebody brought it up again this past week.
>>=20
>>=20
>> It seems logical that an open discussion list is not a big deal to =
continue
>> to be hosted on Sourceforge, as there isn=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2t =
much they could do to screw it
>> up.=C3=82  I personally think moving it away now would be seen as a =
gesture that
>> we do not consider their behavior to be acceptable.=C3=82  There are =
also some
>> benefits in being hosted elsewhere, at an entity able to =
professionally
>> maintain their infrastructure while also being neutral to the =
content.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a Neutral Competent Entity
>>=20
>>=20
>> Bitcoin is a global infrastructure development project where it would =
be
>> politically awkward for any of the existing Bitcoin companies or orgs =
to
>> host due to questions it would raise about perceived political =
control.=C3=82
>> For example, consider a bizarro parallel universe where MtGox was the
>> inventor of Bitcoin, where they hosted its development infrastructure =
and
>> dev list under their own name.=C3=82  Even if what they published was =
100%
>> technically and ideologically equivalent to the Bitcoin we know in =
our
>> dimension, most people wouldn't have trusted it merely due to =
appearances
>> and it would have easily gone nowhere.
>>=20
>>=20
>> I had a similar thought process last week when sidechains code was
>> approaching release. Sidechains, like Bitcoin itself, are intended to =
be a
>> generic piece of infrastructure (like ethernet?) that anyone can =
build upon
>> and use.=C3=82  We thought about Google Groups or existing orgs that =
already host
>> various open source infrastructure discussion lists like the IETF or =
the
>> Linux Foundation.=C3=82  Google is too controversial in this =
community, and the
>> IETF is seen as possibly too politically fractured.=C3=82  The Linux =
Foundation
>> hosts a bunch of infrastructure lists and it seems that nobody in the =
Open
>> Source industry considers them to be particularly objectionable.=C3=82 =
 I talked
>> with LF about the idea of hosting generic Bitcoin-related =
infrastructure
>> development lists.=C3=82  They agreed as OSS infrastructure dev is =
already within
>> their charter, so early this week sidechains-dev list began hosting =
there.
>>=20
>>=20
>> =46rom the perspective of our community, for bitcoin-dev it seems =
like a great
>> fit.=C3=82  Why?=C3=82  While they are interested in supporting =
general open source
>> development, the LF has literally zero stake in this.=C3=82  In =
addition to
>> neutrality, they seem to be suitable as a competent host.=C3=82  They =
have
>> full-time sysadmins maintaining their infrastructure including the =
Mailman
>> server. They are soon upgrading to Mailman 3, which means mailing =
lists
>> would benefit from the improved archive browser.=C3=82  I am not =
personally
>> familiar with HyperKitty, but the point here is they are a stable =
non-profit
>> entity who will competently maintain and improve things like their =
Mailman
>> deployment (a huge improvement over the stagnant Sourceforge).=C3=82  =
It seems
>> that LF would be competent, neutral place to host dev lists for the
>> long-term.
>>=20
>>=20
>> To be clear, this proposal is only about hosting the discussion =
list.=C3=82  The
>> LF would have no control over the Bitcoin Project, as no single =
entity
>> should.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Proposed Action Plan
>>=20
>>=20
>> Discuss this openly within this community.=C3=82  Above is one =
example of a great
>> neutral and competent host.=C3=82  If the technical leaders here can =
agree to
>> move to a particular neutral host then we do it.
>>=20
>> Migration: The current list admins become the new list admins.=C3=82  =
We import
>> the entire list archive into the new host's archives for user =
convenience.
>>=20
>> http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/ =C3=82 Kill bitcoin-list =
and
>> bitcoin-test.=C3=82  Very few people actually use it.=C3=82  =
Actually, let's delete
>> the entire Bitcoin Sourceforge project as its continued existence =
serves no
>> purpose and it only confuses people who find it.=C3=82  By deletion, =
nobody has
>> to monitor it for a repeat of the Sept 2014 hacking incident or =
GIMP-type
>> hijacking?
>>=20
>> The toughest question would be the appropriateness of auto-importing =
the
>> subscriber list to another list server, as mass imports have a =
tendency to
>> upset people.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Thoughts?
>>=20
>>=20
>> Warren Togami
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>=20
>=20
> =
--------------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
> _______________________________________________
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


--Apple-Mail=_F0637553-D1AF-43F6-8B80-6F2FAC030D4E
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
just wanted to let everyone know that every email is also archived =
at&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://bitcoin-development.narkive.com" =
class=3D"">bitcoin-development.narkive.com</a>, where you can find =
everything since the beginning of the list (June 2011). That should =
answer to Andy=E2=80=99s concern about the older messages not being =
archived anywhere but on sourceforge.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Davide</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 14 Jun 2015, at 23:59, Adam =
Back &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:adam@cypherspace.org" =
class=3D"">adam@cypherspace.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">It might be as well =
to keep the archive but disable new posts as<br class=3D"">otherwise we =
create bit-rot for people who linked to posts on<br =
class=3D"">sourceforge.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The list is also =
archived on mail-archive though.<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge=
.net/" =
class=3D"">https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourcefo=
rge.net/</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Adam<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">On 14 June 2015 at 22:55, Andy Schroder =
&lt;info@andyschroder.com&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Hello,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I'd support =
moving to a Linux Foundation e-mail list. I am also against<br =
class=3D"">google groups. I agree that the gesture of moving indicates =
that SourceForge<br class=3D"">is not playing nice on other issues and =
that moving this list shows their<br class=3D"">behavior is being =
acknowledged.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I understand your reason for =
wanting to delete the Source Forge account<br class=3D"">(after reading =
the links). However, the only problem with that is that the<br =
class=3D"">SourceForge archive is the oldest one I've found with some =
early messages<br class=3D"">from Satoshi. Myself finding Bitcoin after =
its inception, as well as this<br class=3D"">mailing list even later on, =
it's nice to be able to review the archives.<br class=3D"">SourceForge's =
interface to those archives is pretty bad though. I'm not sure<br =
class=3D"">if there is any way to get older messages archived on sites =
like gmane or<br class=3D"">mail-archive? Does anyone know? You =
mentioned importing the list archive as<br class=3D"">part of the =
migration plan, but I guess is this easy to do from SourceForge?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Andy Schroder<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">On 06/14/2015 06:12 AM, Warren Togami Jr. wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Discomfort with Sourceforge<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">For a while now people have been expressing concern about =
Sourceforge's<br class=3D"">continued hosting of the bitcoin-dev mailing =
list.=C3=82 &nbsp;Downloads were moved<br class=3D"">completely to =
bitcoin.org after the Sept 2014 hacking incident of the SF<br =
class=3D"">project account.=C3=82 &nbsp;The company's behavior and =
perceived stability have been<br class=3D"">growing to be increasingly =
questionable.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/08/gimp_dumps_sourceforge_=
over_dodgy_ads_and_installer<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">November 2013: =
GIMP flees SourceForge over dodgy ads and installer<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">https://lwn.net/Articles/646118/<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">May 28th, 2015: SourceForge replacing GIMP Windows =
downloads<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">http://seclists.org/nmap-dev/2015/q2/194<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">June 3rd, 2015: Sourceforge hijacked nmap's old site and =
downloads.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">When this topic =
came up over the past two years, it seemed that most people<br =
class=3D"">agreed it would be a good idea to move.=C3=82 &nbsp;Someone =
always suggests Google<br class=3D"">Groups as the replacement host.=C3=82=
 &nbsp;Google is quickly shot down as too<br class=3D"">controversial in =
this community, and it becomes an even more difficult<br =
class=3D"">question as to who else should host it.=C3=82 &nbsp;Realizing =
this is not so simple,<br class=3D"">discussion then dies off until the =
next time somebody brings it up.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/bitcoin-development/th=
read/1943127.DBnVxmfOIh%401337h4x0r/#msg34192607<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Somebody brought it up again this past week.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">It seems logical that an open discussion list =
is not a big deal to continue<br class=3D"">to be hosted on Sourceforge, =
as there isn=C3=A2=E2=82=AC=E2=84=A2t much they could do to screw it<br =
class=3D"">up.=C3=82 &nbsp;I personally think moving it away now would =
be seen as a gesture that<br class=3D"">we do not consider their =
behavior to be acceptable.=C3=82 &nbsp;There are also some<br =
class=3D"">benefits in being hosted elsewhere, at an entity able to =
professionally<br class=3D"">maintain their infrastructure while also =
being neutral to the content.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Proposal: Move Bitcoin Dev List to a Neutral Competent =
Entity<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Bitcoin is a global =
infrastructure development project where it would be<br =
class=3D"">politically awkward for any of the existing Bitcoin companies =
or orgs to<br class=3D"">host due to questions it would raise about =
perceived political control.=C3=82<br class=3D"">For example, consider a =
bizarro parallel universe where MtGox was the<br class=3D"">inventor of =
Bitcoin, where they hosted its development infrastructure and<br =
class=3D"">dev list under their own name.=C3=82 &nbsp;Even if what they =
published was 100%<br class=3D"">technically and ideologically =
equivalent to the Bitcoin we know in our<br class=3D"">dimension, most =
people wouldn't have trusted it merely due to appearances<br =
class=3D"">and it would have easily gone nowhere.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">I had a similar thought process last week when =
sidechains code was<br class=3D"">approaching release. Sidechains, like =
Bitcoin itself, are intended to be a<br class=3D"">generic piece of =
infrastructure (like ethernet?) that anyone can build upon<br =
class=3D"">and use.=C3=82 &nbsp;We thought about Google Groups or =
existing orgs that already host<br class=3D"">various open source =
infrastructure discussion lists like the IETF or the<br class=3D"">Linux =
Foundation.=C3=82 &nbsp;Google is too controversial in this community, =
and the<br class=3D"">IETF is seen as possibly too politically =
fractured.=C3=82 &nbsp;The Linux Foundation<br class=3D"">hosts a bunch =
of infrastructure lists and it seems that nobody in the Open<br =
class=3D"">Source industry considers them to be particularly =
objectionable.=C3=82 &nbsp;I talked<br class=3D"">with LF about the idea =
of hosting generic Bitcoin-related infrastructure<br =
class=3D"">development lists.=C3=82 &nbsp;They agreed as OSS =
infrastructure dev is already within<br class=3D"">their charter, so =
early this week sidechains-dev list began hosting there.<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""><br class=3D"">=46rom the perspective of our community, for =
bitcoin-dev it seems like a great<br class=3D"">fit.=C3=82 &nbsp;Why?=C3=82=
 &nbsp;While they are interested in supporting general open source<br =
class=3D"">development, the LF has literally zero stake in this.=C3=82 =
&nbsp;In addition to<br class=3D"">neutrality, they seem to be suitable =
as a competent host.=C3=82 &nbsp;They have<br class=3D"">full-time =
sysadmins maintaining their infrastructure including the Mailman<br =
class=3D"">server. They are soon upgrading to Mailman 3, which means =
mailing lists<br class=3D"">would benefit from the improved archive =
browser.=C3=82 &nbsp;I am not personally<br class=3D"">familiar with =
HyperKitty, but the point here is they are a stable non-profit<br =
class=3D"">entity who will competently maintain and improve things like =
their Mailman<br class=3D"">deployment (a huge improvement over the =
stagnant Sourceforge).=C3=82 &nbsp;It seems<br class=3D"">that LF would =
be competent, neutral place to host dev lists for the<br =
class=3D"">long-term.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">To be =
clear, this proposal is only about hosting the discussion list.=C3=82 =
&nbsp;The<br class=3D"">LF would have no control over the Bitcoin =
Project, as no single entity<br class=3D"">should.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Proposed Action Plan<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Discuss this openly within this community.=C3=82=
 &nbsp;Above is one example of a great<br class=3D"">neutral and =
competent host.=C3=82 &nbsp;If the technical leaders here can agree =
to<br class=3D"">move to a particular neutral host then we do it.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Migration: The current list admins become the =
new list admins.=C3=82 &nbsp;We import<br class=3D"">the entire list =
archive into the new host's archives for user convenience.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/ =C3=82=
 Kill bitcoin-list and<br class=3D"">bitcoin-test.=C3=82 &nbsp;Very few =
people actually use it.=C3=82 &nbsp;Actually, let's delete<br =
class=3D"">the entire Bitcoin Sourceforge project as its continued =
existence serves no<br class=3D"">purpose and it only confuses people =
who find it.=C3=82 &nbsp;By deletion, nobody has<br class=3D"">to =
monitor it for a repeat of the Sept 2014 hacking incident or =
GIMP-type<br class=3D"">hijacking?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The =
toughest question would be the appropriateness of auto-importing the<br =
class=3D"">subscriber list to another list server, as mass imports have =
a tendency to<br class=3D"">upset people.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">Thoughts?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Warren =
Togami<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">---------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Bitcoin-development mailing list<br =
class=3D"">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net<br =
class=3D"">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-developmen=
t<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">---------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">Bitcoin-development mailing list<br =
class=3D"">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net<br =
class=3D"">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-developmen=
t<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">---------------------------------------------------------------=
---------------<br =
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