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From: Tao Effect <contact@taoeffect.com>
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To: Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com>
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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Drivechain RfD -- Follow Up
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Paul,

I'm assuming it's OK with you that I pick up from where we left off in =
the "Scaling Roadmap" thread [1], so as to be on-topic per your request. =
(For others reading, part of my reply to the previous email in this =
thread is here [2]).

For reference, I said:

> Isn't it different in the case of P2SH and SegWit, don't full nodes =
validate the script?
>=20
> In other words, miners don't have complete control over the coins, =
full nodes keep a check on them.
>=20
> At least that was my understanding, and if that's not the case then it =
doesn't make sense to me why Pieter would earlier in this thread object =
to Drivechain on the grounds that it's a different security model.


CryptAxe's response was in part:
> You guys are both right that it is a different security model, with =
the important distinction that it is opt-in. What I disagree with about =
what you said is only that we are encouraging more risky behavior by =
adding consensus rules via softfork. There are additional risks with =
drivechains, but not because of how the new consensus rules would be =
added (it would be the same risk as the P2SH softfork).


I am now looking closer again at step number 4 in the Drivechain =
specification [2]:

4. Everyone waits for a period of, say, 3 days. This gives everyone an =
opportunity to make sure the same WT^ is in both the Bitcoin coinbase =
and the Sidechain header. If they=E2=80=99re different, everyone has =
plenty of time to contact each other, figure out what is going on, and =
restart the process until its right.


It seems to me that where our disagreement lies is in this point.

The Drivechain spec seems to claim that its use of anyone-can-pay is the =
same as P2SH (and in later emails you reference SegWit as well). Is this =
really true?

The following suggests to me it isn't:

1. Pieter Wuille's email suggests he disagrees [4]

2. Per the question in [1], it's my understanding that P2SH transactions =
contain all of the information within themselves for full nodes to act =
as a check on miners mishandling the anyone-can-spend nature of P2SH =
transactions. However, that does not seem to be the case with WT^ =
transactions.


In P2SH txns, there is no need for anyone to, as the Drivechain spec =
says, "to contact each other, figure out what is going on". Everything =
just automatically works.


If the security of WT^ transactions could be brought up to actually be =
in line with the security of P2SH and SegWit transactions, then I would =
have far less to object to.

Kind regards,
Greg Slepak


[1] =
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-July/014763.h=
tml =
<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-July/014763.=
html>
[2] =
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-July/014745.h=
tml =
<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-July/014745.=
html>
[3] http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/drivechain/ =
<http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/drivechain/>
[4] =
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-July/014721.h=
tml =
<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-July/014721.=
html>

--
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also =
sharing with the NSA.

> On Jun 19, 2017, at 9:04 AM, Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com =
<mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Greg,
>=20
> Responses below:
>=20
> On 6/18/2017 5:30 PM, Tao Effect wrote:
>> In Drivechain, 51% of miners have total control and ownership over =
all
>> of the sidechain coins.
>=20
> It would not be accurate to say that miners have "total" control. =
Miners
> do control the destination of withdrawals, but they do not control the
> withdrawal-duration nor the withdrawal-frequency.
>=20

[ ...snip.. ]


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Paul,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I'm =
assuming it's OK with you that I pick up from where we left off in the =
"Scaling Roadmap" thread [1], so as to be on-topic per your request. =
(For others reading, part of my reply to the previous email in this =
thread is here [2]).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">For reference, I said:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; =
padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Isn't it different in the =
case of P2SH and SegWit, don't full nodes validate the =
script?</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">In other words, =
miners don't have complete control over the coins, full nodes keep a =
check on them.</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">At least that was =
my understanding, and if that's not the case then it doesn't make sense =
to me why Pieter would earlier in this thread object to Drivechain on =
the grounds that it's a different security =
model.</div></div></blockquote></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"">CryptAxe's =
response was in part:</div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; =
border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><p =
style=3D"background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">You guys are both right that it is a different =
security model, with the important distinction that it is opt-in. What I =
disagree with about what you said is only that we are encouraging more =
risky behavior by adding consensus rules via softfork. There are =
additional risks with drivechains, but not because of how the new =
consensus rules would be added (it would be the same risk as the P2SH =
softfork).&nbsp;<br class=3D""></blockquote></p><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">I am now looking =
closer again at step number 4 in the Drivechain specification =
[2]:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">4. Everyone waits for a period of, say, 3 =
days. This gives everyone an opportunity to make sure the same WT^ is in =
both the Bitcoin coinbase and the Sidechain header. If they=E2=80=99re =
different, everyone has plenty of time to contact each other, figure out =
what is going on, and restart the process until its =
right.</div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It seems to me that =
where our disagreement lies is in this point.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The Drivechain spec seems to claim that =
its use of anyone-can-pay is the same as P2SH (and in later emails you =
reference SegWit as well). Is this really true?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The following suggests to me it =
isn't:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">1. =
Pieter Wuille's email suggests he disagrees [4]</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">2. Per the question in [1], it's my =
understanding that P2SH transactions contain all of the information =
within themselves for full nodes to act as a check on miners mishandling =
the anyone-can-spend nature of P2SH transactions. However, that does not =
seem to be the case with WT^ transactions.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In =
P2SH txns, there is no need for anyone to, as the Drivechain spec says, =
"to contact each other, figure out what is going on". Everything just =
automatically works.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If the security of WT^ =
transactions could be brought up to actually be in line with the =
security of P2SH and SegWit transactions, then I would have far less to =
object to.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Kind =
regards,</div><div class=3D"">Greg Slepak</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">[1]&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-July/=
014763.html" =
class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-Ju=
ly/014763.html</a></div><div class=3D"">[2]&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-July/=
014745.html" =
class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-Ju=
ly/014745.html</a></div><div class=3D"">[3]&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/drivechain/" =
class=3D"">http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/drivechain/</a></div><div =
class=3D"">[4]&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-July/=
014721.html" =
class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-Ju=
ly/014721.html</a></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D"">--</span><br style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D"">Please do not email me anything that you are not =
comfortable also sharing</span><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal; =
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; =
widows: 2;" class=3D"">&nbsp;with the NSA.</span>
</div>
<br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jun 19, 2017, at 9:04 AM, Paul Sztorc &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com" class=3D"">truthcoin@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">Hi =
Greg,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Responses below:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">On 6/18/2017 5:30 PM, Tao Effect wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">In Drivechain, 51% of =
miners have total control and ownership over all<br class=3D"">of the =
sidechain coins.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">It would not =
be accurate to say that miners have "total" control. Miners<br =
class=3D"">do control the destination of withdrawals, but they do not =
control the<br class=3D"">withdrawal-duration nor the =
withdrawal-frequency.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div><div>[ ...snip.. ]</div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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