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From: CryptAxe <cryptaxe@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 12:50:13 -0700
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To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>,
Tao Effect <contact@taoeffect.com>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized sharding protocol for decentralized
scaling without Miners owning our BTC
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Your method would change the number of Bitcoins in existence. Why?
On Oct 10, 2017 12:47 PM, "Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev" <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> Is that what passes for a technical argument these days? Sheesh.
>
> Whereas in Drivechain users are forced to give up their coins to a single
> group for whatever sidechains they interact with, the generic sharding al=
go
> lets them (1) keep their coins, (2) trust whatever group they want to tru=
st
> (the miners of the various sidechains).
>
> Drivechain offers objectively worse security.
>
> --
> Sent from my mobile device.
> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing
> with the NSA.
>
> On Oct 10, 2017, at 8:09 AM, Paul Sztorc via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> I think this response speaks for itself.
>
> On 10/10/2017 10:09 AM, Tao Effect wrote:
>
> Hi Paul,
>
> I thought it was clear, but apparently you are getting stuck on the
> semantics of the word "burn".
>
> The "burning" applies to the original coins you had.
>
> When you transfer them back, you get newly minted coins, equivalent to th=
e
> amount you "burned" on the chain you're transferring from =E2=80=94 as st=
ated in
> the OP.
>
> If you don't like the word "burn", pick another one.
>
> --
> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing=
with
> the NSA.
>
> On Oct 10, 2017, at 4:20 AM, Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Haha, no. Because you "burned" the coins.
>
> On Oct 10, 2017 1:20 AM, "Tao Effect" <contact@taoeffect.com> wrote:
>
>> Paul,
>>
>> It's a two-way peg.
>>
>> There's nothing preventing transfers back to the main chain.
>>
>> They work in the exact same manner.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Greg
>>
>> --
>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharin=
g with
>> the NSA.
>>
>> On Oct 9, 2017, at 6:39 PM, Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> That is only a one-way peg, not a two-way.
>>
>> In fact, that is exactly what drivechain does, if one chooses parameters
>> for the drivechain that make it impossible for any side-to-main transfer=
to
>> succeed.
>>
>> One-way pegs have strong first-mover disadvantages.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>> On Oct 9, 2017 9:24 PM, "Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev" <
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>
>> Dear list,
>>
>> In previous arguments over Drivechain (and Drivechain-like proposals) I
>> promised that better scaling proposals =E2=80=94 that do not sacrifice B=
itcoin's
>> security =E2=80=94 would come along.
>>
>> I planned to do a detailed writeup, but have decided to just send off
>> this email with what I have, because I'm unlikely to have time to write =
up
>> a detailed proposal.
>>
>> The idea is very simple (and by no means novel*), and I'm sure others
>> have mentioned either exactly it, or similar ideas (e.g. burning coins)
>> before.
>>
>> This is a generic sharding protocol for all blockchains, including
>> Bitcoin.
>>
>> Users simply say: "My coins on Chain A are going to be sent to Chain B".
>>
>> Then they burn the coins on Chain A, and create a minting transaction on
>> Chain B. The details of how to ensure that coins do not get lost needs t=
o
>> be worked out, but I'm fairly certain the folks on this list can figure =
out
>> those details.
>>
>> - Thin clients, nodes, and miners, can all very easily verify that said
>> action took place, and therefore accept the "newly minted" coins on B as
>> valid.
>> - Users client software now also knows where to look for the other coins
>> (if for some reason it needs to).
>>
>> This doesn't even need much modification to the Bitcoin protocol as most
>> of the verification is done client-side.
>>
>> It is fully decentralized, and there's no need to give our ownership of
>> our coins to miners to get scale.
>>
>> My sincere apologies if this has been brought up before (in which case, =
I
>> would be very grateful for a link to the proposal).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Greg Slepak
>>
>> * This idea is similar in spirit to Interledger.
>>
>> --
>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharin=
g with
>> the NSA.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
--f403045f50e8a57220055b369d46
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"auto">Your method would change the number of Bitcoins in existe=
nce. Why?=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Oct 10, 2017 12:47 PM, "Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev" <<a=
href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.li=
nuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Is that what passes for a technical argumen=
t these days? Sheesh.<div><br></div><div><div>Whereas in Drivechain users a=
re forced to give up their coins to a single group for whatever sidechains =
they interact with, the generic sharding algo lets them (1) keep their coin=
s, (2) trust whatever group they want to trust (the miners of the various s=
idechains).</div><div><br></div><div>Drivechain offers objectively worse se=
curity.</div><br><div id=3D"m_1387969289276275631AppleMailSignature">--<div=
>Sent from my mobile device.</div><div><span style=3D"background-color:rgba=
(255,255,255,0)">Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortab=
le also sharing with the NSA.</span></div></div><div><br>On Oct 10, 2017, a=
t 8:09 AM, Paul Sztorc via bitcoin-dev <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@li=
sts.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoun=
dation.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>
=20
=20
=20
=20
<div class=3D"m_1387969289276275631moz-cite-prefix">I think this respon=
se speaks for
itself.<br>
<br>
On 10/10/2017 10:09 AM, Tao Effect wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
=20
=20
<div>Hi Paul,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I thought it was clear, but apparently you are
getting stuck on the semantics of the word "burn".</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The "burning" applies to the original coins you had.</=
div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>When you transfer them back, you get newly minted
coins, equivalent to the amount you "burned" on the chain=
you're
transferring from =E2=80=94 as stated in the OP.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If you don't like the word "burn", pick another on=
e.</div>
<div>
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14p=
x;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spac=
ing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space=
:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric=
:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-=
height:normal"><br class=3D"m_1387969289276275631Apple-interchange-newline"=
>
--</span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font=
-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-varian=
t-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:nor=
mal;line-height:normal">
<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14p=
x;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spac=
ing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space=
:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric=
:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-=
height:normal">Please do not email me anything that
you are not comfortable also sharing</span><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;te=
xt-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-=
variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternate=
s:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal">=C2=A0with the =
NSA.</span>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Oct 10, 2017, at 4:20 AM, Paul Sztorc <<a href=3D"mail=
to:truthcoin@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">truthcoin@gmail.com</a>> wrote=
:</div>
<br class=3D"m_1387969289276275631Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Haha, no. Because you "burned" the
coins.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Oct 10, 2017 1:20 AM, "Tao
Effect" <<a href=3D"mailto:contact@taoeffect.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">contact@taoeffect.com</a>>
wrote:<br type=3D"attribution">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">Paul,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It's a two-way peg.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>There's nothing preventing transfers
back to the main chain.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>They work in the exact same manner.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div>Greg<br>
<div>
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px=
;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spaci=
ng:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:=
normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:=
normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-h=
eight:normal"><br class=3D"m_1387969289276275631m_8294306076325067848Apple-=
interchange-newline">
--</span><br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-=
size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant=
-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:norm=
al;line-height:normal">
<span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px=
;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spaci=
ng:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:=
normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:=
normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-h=
eight:normal">Please do not email me
anything that you are not comfortable also
sharing</span><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetic=
a;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:nor=
mal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:n=
one;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-=
variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-asi=
an:normal;line-height:normal">=C2=A0with the NSA.</span>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div>On Oct 9, 2017, at 6:39 PM, Paul
Sztorc <<a href=3D"mailto:truthcoin@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">truthcoin@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_1387969289276275631m_8294306076325=
067848Apple-interchange-newline">
<div>
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div>That is only a one-way peg,
not a two-way.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">In fact, that is
exactly what drivechain does, if one
chooses parameters for the drivechain
that make it impossible for any
side-to-main transfer to succeed.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">One-way pegs have
strong first-mover disadvantages.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Paul<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra" dir=3D"auto"><br=
>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Oct 9,
2017 9:24 PM, "Tao Effect via
bitcoin-dev" <<a href=3D"mailto=
:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists=
.linuxfounda<wbr>tion.org</a>>
wrote:<br type=3D"attribution">
<blockquote class=3D"m_1387969289276275=
631m_8294306076325067848quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"=
>Dear list,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In previous
arguments over Drivechain
(and Drivechain-like
proposals) I promised that
better scaling proposals =E2=80=
=94
that do not sacrifice
Bitcoin's security =E2=80=
=94 would
come along.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I planned to do
a detailed writeup, but have
decided to just send off
this email with what I have,
because I'm unlikely to hav=
e
time to write up a detailed
proposal.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The idea is very
simple (and by no means
novel*), and I'm sure other=
s
have mentioned either
exactly it, or similar ideas
(e.g. burning coins) before.</d=
iv>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is a
generic sharding protocol
for all blockchains,
including Bitcoin.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Users simply
say: "My coins on Chain A
are going to be sent to
Chain B".</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Then they burn
the coins on Chain A, and
create a minting transaction
on Chain B. The details of
how to ensure that coins do
not get lost needs to be
worked out, but I'm fairly
certain the folks on this
list can figure out those
details.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>- Thin clients,
nodes, and miners, can all
very easily verify that said
action took place, and
therefore accept the "newl=
y
minted" coins on B as vali=
d.</div>
<div>- Users client
software now also knows
where to look for the other
coins (if for some reason it
needs to).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This doesn't
even need much modification
to the Bitcoin protocol as
most of the verification is
done client-side.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>It is fully
decentralized, and there's
no need to give our
ownership of our coins to
miners to get scale.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My sincere
apologies if this has been
brought up before (in which
case, I would be very
grateful for a link to the
proposal).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div>Greg Slepak</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>* This idea is
similar in spirit to
Interledger.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font=
-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-=
transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:n=
ormal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-varia=
nt-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal">--</span><br style=3D"font-family:=
Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-we=
ight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:norm=
al;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-=
east-asian:normal;line-height:normal">
<span style=3D"font-family:=
Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-we=
ight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:norm=
al;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-=
east-asian:normal;line-height:normal">Please do not
email me anything that
you are not
comfortable also
sharing</span><span style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-cap=
s:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-varian=
t-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:norm=
al;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal">=C2=A0with the
NSA.</span>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
______________________________<wbr>__=
_______________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.l=
inuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat<wbr>io=
n.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundat=
ion.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr>ev</a=
><br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
=20
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>___________________=
___________<wbr>_________________</span><br><span>bitcoin-dev mailing list<=
/span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a></span><br><s=
pan><a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d=
ev" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org/mailman/listin=
fo/bitcoin-<wbr>dev</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></div><br>______=
________________________<wbr>_________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.=
<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org=
/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr>dev</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div></div>
--f403045f50e8a57220055b369d46--
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