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To: Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com>,
Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized sharding protocol for decentralized
scaling without Miners owning our BTC
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Is that what passes for a technical argument these days? Sheesh.
Whereas in Drivechain users are forced to give up their coins to a single gr=
oup for whatever sidechains they interact with, the generic sharding algo le=
ts them (1) keep their coins, (2) trust whatever group they want to trust (t=
he miners of the various sidechains).
Drivechain offers objectively worse security.
--
Sent from my mobile device.
Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing wi=
th the NSA.
> On Oct 10, 2017, at 8:09 AM, Paul Sztorc via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@list=
s.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>=20
> I think this response speaks for itself.
>=20
>> On 10/10/2017 10:09 AM, Tao Effect wrote:
>> Hi Paul,
>>=20
>> I thought it was clear, but apparently you are getting stuck on the seman=
tics of the word "burn".
>>=20
>> The "burning" applies to the original coins you had.
>>=20
>> When you transfer them back, you get newly minted coins, equivalent to th=
e amount you "burned" on the chain you're transferring from =81\ as stated i=
n the OP.
>>=20
>> If you don't like the word "burn", pick another one.
>>=20
>> --
>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing=
with the NSA.
>>=20
>>> On Oct 10, 2017, at 4:20 AM, Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Haha, no. Because you "burned" the coins.
>>>=20
>>>> On Oct 10, 2017 1:20 AM, "Tao Effect" <contact@taoeffect.com> wrote:
>>>> Paul,
>>>>=20
>>>> It's a two-way peg.
>>>>=20
>>>> There's nothing preventing transfers back to the main chain.
>>>>=20
>>>> They work in the exact same manner.
>>>>=20
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Greg
>>>>=20
>>>> --
>>>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also shari=
ng with the NSA.
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Oct 9, 2017, at 6:39 PM, Paul Sztorc <truthcoin@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> That is only a one-way peg, not a two-way.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> In fact, that is exactly what drivechain does, if one chooses paramete=
rs for the drivechain that make it impossible for any side-to-main transfer t=
o succeed.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> One-way pegs have strong first-mover disadvantages.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Paul
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On Oct 9, 2017 9:24 PM, "Tao Effect via bitcoin-dev" <bitcoin-dev@list=
s.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>> Dear list,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> In previous arguments over Drivechain (and Drivechain-like proposals) I=
promised that better scaling proposals =81\ that do not sacrifice Bitcoin's=
security =81\ would come along.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I planned to do a detailed writeup, but have decided to just send off t=
his email with what I have, because I'm unlikely to have time to write up a d=
etailed proposal.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The idea is very simple (and by no means novel*), and I'm sure others h=
ave mentioned either exactly it, or similar ideas (e.g. burning coins) befor=
e.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> This is a generic sharding protocol for all blockchains, including Bit=
coin.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Users simply say: "My coins on Chain A are going to be sent to Chain B=
".
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Then they burn the coins on Chain A, and create a minting transaction o=
n Chain B. The details of how to ensure that coins do not get lost needs to b=
e worked out, but I'm fairly cer=
tain the folks on this list can figure out those details.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - Thin clients, nodes, and miners, can all very easily verify that sai=
d action took place, and therefore accept the "newly minted" coins on B as v=
alid.
>>>>> - Users client software now also knows where to look for the other coi=
ns (if for some reason it needs t=
o).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> This doesn't even need much modification to the Bitcoin protocol as mo=
st of the verification is done client-side.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> It is fully decentralized, and there's no need to give our ownership o=
f our coins to miners to get scale.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> My sincere apologies if this has been brought up before (in which case=
, I would be very grateful for a link to the proposal).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Greg Slepak
>>>>>=20
>>>>> * This idea is similar in spirit to Interledger.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --
>>>>> Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also shar=
ing with the NSA.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
--Apple-Mail-6C616161-C528-43E2-8CC7-3C7242C24ED7
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Is that what passes for a technical argumen=
t these days? Sheesh.<div><br></div><div><div>Whereas in Drivechain users ar=
e forced to give up their coins to a single group for whatever sidechains th=
ey interact with, the generic sharding algo lets them (1) keep their coins, (=
2) trust whatever group they want to trust (the miners of the various sidech=
ains).</div><div><br></div><div>Drivechain offers objectively worse security=
.</div><br><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">--<div>Sent from my mobile device.=
</div><div><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Please d=
o not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the N=
SA.</span></div></div><div><br>On Oct 10, 2017, at 8:09 AM, Paul Sztorc via b=
itcoin-dev <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitc=
oin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite"><div>
=20
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"=
>
=20
=20
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">I think this response speaks for
itself.<br>
<br>
On 10/10/2017 10:09 AM, Tao Effect wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:FBD96A02-243E-4E09-9204-EC90DE5EE5=
76@taoeffect.com">
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-=
8">
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-=
8">
<div class=3D"">Hi Paul,</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">I thought it was clear, but apparently you are
getting stuck on the semantics of the word "burn".</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">The "burning" applies to the original coins you had.</=
div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">When you transfer them back, you get newly minted
coins, equivalent to the amount you "burned" on the chain you're
transferring from =E2=80=94 as stated in the OP.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">If you don't like the word "burn", pick another one.</=
div>
<div class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric:
normal; font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
2; widows: 2;" class=3D""><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">=
--</span><br style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric:
normal; font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
2; widows: 2;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variant-numeric:
normal; font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
2; widows: 2;" class=3D"">Please do not email me anything that
you are not comfortable also sharing</span><span style=3D"color:
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-position: normal;
font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height: normal; orphans:
2; widows: 2;" class=3D""> with the NSA.</span>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Oct 10, 2017, at 4:20 AM, Paul Sztorc <<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">truthc=
oin@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">Haha, no. Because you "burned" the
coins.</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Oct 10, 2017 1:20 AM, "Tao
Effect" <<a href=3D"mailto:contact@taoeffect.com" class=3D=
"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">contact@taoeffect.com</a>>
wrote:<br type=3D"attribution" class=3D"">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D"">Paul,
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">It's a two-way peg.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">There's nothing preventing transfers
back to the main chain.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">They work in the exact same manner.</div=
>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Cheers,</div>
<div class=3D"">Greg<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height:
normal;" class=3D""><br class=3D"m_829430607632506=
7848Apple-interchange-newline">
--</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight:
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;
font-variant-ligatures: normal;
font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height:
normal;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height:
normal;" class=3D"">Please do not email me
anything that you are not comfortable also
sharing</span><span style=3D"font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style:
normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
word-spacing: 0px; font-variant-ligatures:
normal; font-variant-numeric: normal;
font-variant-alternates: normal;
font-variant-east-asian: normal; line-height:
normal;" class=3D""> with the NSA.</span>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Oct 9, 2017, at 6:39 PM, Paul
Sztorc <<a href=3D"mailto:truthcoin@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">truthcoin@gmail.com<=
/a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"m_8294306076325067848Apple-interchang=
e-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">That is only a one-way peg,
not a two-way.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">In fact, that is
exactly what drivechain does, if one
chooses parameters for the drivechain
that make it impossible for any
side-to-main transfer to succeed.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">One-way pegs have=
strong first-mover disadvantages.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">Paul<br class=3D"=
">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra" dir=3D"auto"><br c=
lass=3D"">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Oct 9,
2017 9:24 PM, "Tao Effect via
bitcoin-dev" <<a href=3D"mailto:bitco=
in-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-se=
nd=3D"true">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr class=3D"">linuxfoundation.org</a>>
wrote:<br type=3D"attribution" class=3D"=
">
<blockquote class=3D"m_82943060763250678=
48quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" cl=
ass=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" c=
lass=3D"">Dear list,
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">In previous
arguments over Drivechain
(and Drivechain-like
proposals) I promised that
better scaling proposals =E2=80=94=
that do not sacrifice
Bitcoin's security =E2=80=94 wou=
ld
come along.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">I planned to do
a detailed writeup, but have
decided to just send off
this email with what I have,
because I'm unlikely to have
time to write up a detailed
proposal.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">The idea is very
simple (and by no means
novel*), and I'm sure others
have mentioned either
exactly it, or similar ideas
(e.g. burning coins) before.</di=
v>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">This is a
generic sharding protocol
for all blockchains,
including Bitcoin.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Users simply
say: "My coins on Chain A
are going to be sent to
Chain B".</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Then they burn
the coins on Chain A, and
create a minting transaction
on Chain B. The details of
how to ensure that coins do
not get lost needs to be
worked out, but I'm fairly
certain the folks on this
list can figure out those
details.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">- Thin clients,
nodes, and miners, can all
very easily verify that said
action took place, and
therefore accept the "newly
minted" coins on B as valid.</di=
v>
<div class=3D"">- Users client
software now also knows
where to look for the other
coins (if for some reason it
needs to).</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">This doesn't
even need much modification
to the Bitcoin protocol as
most of the verification is
done client-side.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">It is fully
decentralized, and there's
no need to give our
ownership of our coins to
miners to get scale.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">My sincere
apologies if this has been
brought up before (in which
case, I would be very
grateful for a link to the
proposal).</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Cheers,</div>
<div class=3D"">Greg Slepak</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">* This idea is
similar in spirit to
Interledger.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><span style=3D=
"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:no=
rmal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0=
px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-liga=
tures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font=
-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal" class=3D"">--</span><br style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps=
:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-l=
igatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;f=
ont-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-family:H=
elvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weig=
ht:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-ligatures:normal;f=
ont-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-east-=
asian:normal;line-height:normal" class=3D"">Please do not
email me anything that
you are not
comfortable also
sharing</span><span style=3D=
"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:no=
rmal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0=
px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;font-variant-liga=
tures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-alternates:normal;font=
-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal" class=3D""> with the
NSA.</span>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
______________________________<wbr cla=
ss=3D"">_________________<br class=3D"">
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br class=3D""=
>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.li=
nuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">bit=
coin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat<wbr class=3D"">ion.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundati=
on.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" cl=
ass=3D"" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr class=3D=
"">org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-d<wbr class=3D"">ev</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<p><br>
</p>
=20
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________=
___________________________</span><br><span>bitcoin-dev mailing list</span><=
br><span><a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-de=
v@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a></span><br><span><a href=3D"https://lists.lin=
uxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev">https://lists.linuxfoundation=
.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></b=
ody></html>=
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