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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP Process and Votes
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--089e0160cfaecbefe20519519190
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
https://github.com/pstratem/bitcoin/commits/testnet4
See these two commits for an example of changing all the testnet chain
parameters to create an entirely separate testnet network. This example
"testnet4" changed to different port numbers, pchMessageStart magic, and
with stupid large block sizes.
http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=509
Rusty used this to test block propagation latency.
On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Pindar Wong <pindar.wong@gmail.com> wrote:
> In the process of 'mining consensus', perhaps before voting there should
> be robust system testing and telemetry.
>
> May I ask a questions w.r.t. Process BIPs, what is the process for
> establishing a new testnet (e.g. for testing with 8MB blocks)?
>
> p.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 25, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Milly Bitcoin <milly@bitcoins.info>
> wrote:
>
>> These are the kind of silly responses you often get when this subject
>> comes up. Mr. Garzik knows how to ignore messages he doesn't want so I see
>> no need for him to use the list to attack people he doesn't agree with
>> and/or try to interfere with discussions of others on the list.
>> He turns it into a personality discussion rather than a discussion of
>> Systems Engineering. He also tries to intimate anyone who brings up the
>> discussion and "punish" them as a lesson to anyone else who may raise the
>> issue.
>>
>> It is interesting that people like that are attracted to a decentralized
>> system. The reply is simply an attempt at protecting turf which is why
>> Mr. Garzik's vague replies are never taken seriously on the subject of
>> decision-making process for the software.
>>
>> Russ
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/25/2015 1:07 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
>>
>> Ladies & gents, please do not feed the troll. This has been explained to
>> Milly multiple times in the past, on previous mailing list & github with no
>> impact.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 7:34 PM, Milly Bitcoin <milly@bitcoins.info>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm sorry but that is the kind of defensive, cultish response everyone
>>> gets when they ask that question. If you had a well constructed documented
>>> process then you would be able to point to it ... but you can't. While
>>> there are a few bits and pieces scattered about in different places there
>>> is no coherent plan or process.
>>>
>>> It is easy to make statements like "consensus must be unanimous" but the
>>> issue is that you never have true 100% consensus yet you have to move
>>> forward in some fashion and everyone has to run software with the same
>>> consensus rules. The issue is how you move forward is the question that
>>> nobody wants to answer because (a) it is a hard question to answer and (b)
>>> developers see it as a threat to their authority/position. If people just
>>> keep shutting down the discussion with a bunch of cultish stock answers
>>> then you are never going to move forward with developing some kind of
>>> process.
>>>
>>> From what I can see much of the discussion is personality-driven and not
>>> based on Computer Science or and defined process. The issue is that a
>>> personality has changed so the process is perceived to be different and
>>> some people want to hard fork. Previously, the cultish answer is that
>>> Bitcoin development is decentralized because people can fork the code. Now
>>> that some developers want to fork the code suddenly it is a big problem.
>>> Is forking the code part of the consensus process or is it the work of the
>>> devil? The fact that there is so much diverse opinion on this shows a
>>> defined process has never been fully vetted or understood.
>>>
>>> I have worked on these processes for many years for projects orders of
>>> magnitudes larger than Bitcoin. I can absolutely assure you the current
>>> mishmash does not scale and huge amounts of time are wasted. That should
>>> be readily apparent from the recent discussions and the recent concern it
>>> has caused from people outside the developer's inner circle.
>>>
>>> Lack of defined process = high risk and wasted effort.
>>>
>>> Russ
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/24/2015 9:50 PM, Mark Friedenbach wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm sorry but this is absolutely not the case, Milly. The reason that
>>> people get defensive is that we have a carefully constructed process that
>>> does work (thank you very much!) and is well documented. We talk about it
>>> quite often in fact as it is a defining characteristic of how bitcoin is
>>> developed which differs in some ways from how other open source software is
>>> developed -- although it remains the same in most other ways.
>>>
>>> Changes to the non-consensus sections of Bitcoin Core tend to get
>>> merged when there are a few reviews, tests, and ACKs from recognized
>>> developers, there are no outstanding objections, and the maintainer doing
>>> the merge makes a subjective judgement that the code is ready.
>>>
>>> Consensus-changes, on the other hand, get merged into Bitcoin Core only
>>> after the above criteria are met AND an extremely long discussion period
>>> that has given all the relevant stakeholders a chance to comment, and no
>>> significant objections remain. Consensus-code changes are unanimous. They
>>> must be.
>>>
>>> The sort of process that exists in standards bodies for example, with
>>> working groups and formal voting procedures, has no place where changes
>>> define the nature and validity of other people's money. Who has the right
>>> to reach into your pocket and define how you can or cannot spend your
>>> coins? The premise of bitcoin is that no one has that right, yet that is
>>> very much what we do when consensus code changes are made. That is why when
>>> we make a change to the rules governing the nature of bitcoin, we must make
>>> sure that everyone is made aware of the change and consents to it.
>>>
>>> Everyone. Does this work? Does this scale? So far, it does.
>>> Uncontroversial changes, such as BIP 66, are deployed without issue. Every
>>> indication is that BIP 66 will complete deployment in the very near future,
>>> and we intend to repeat this process for more interesting changes such as
>>> BIP65: CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY.
>>>
>>> This isn't about no one stepping forward to be the "decider." This is
>>> about no one having the right to decide these things on the behalf of
>>> others. If a contentious change is proposed and not accepted by the process
>>> of consensus, that is because the process is doing its job at rejecting
>>> controversial changes. It has nothing to do with personality, and
>>> everything to do with the nature of bitcoin itself.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 5:07 PM, Milly Bitcoin < <milly@bitcoins.info>
>>> milly@bitcoins.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have seen this question asked many times. Most developers become
>>>> defensive and they usually give a very vague 1-sentence answer when this
>>>> question is asked. It seems to be it is based on personalities rather than
>>>> any kind of definable process. To have that discussion the personalities
>>>> must be separated out and answers like "such-and-such wouldn't do that"
>>>> don't really do much to advance the discussion. Also, the incentive for
>>>> new developers to come in is that they will be paid by companies who want
>>>> to influence the code and this should be considered (some developers take
>>>> this statement as an insult when it is just a statement of the incentive
>>>> process).
>>>>
>>>> The other problem you are having is the lead developer does not want to
>>>> be a "decider" when, in fact, he is a very significant decider. While the
>>>> users have the ultimate choice in a practical sense the chief developer is
>>>> the "decider." Now people don't want to get him upset so nobody wants to
>>>> push the issue or fully define the process. Now you are left with a
>>>> broken, unwritten/unspoken process. While this type of thing may work with
>>>> a small group of developers businesses/investors looking in from the
>>>> outside will see this as a risk.
>>>>
>>>> Until you get passed all the personality-based arguments you are going
>>>> to have a tough time defining a real process.
>>>>
>>>> Russ
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 6/24/2015 7:41 PM, Raystonn wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I would like to start a civil discussion on an undefined, or at least
>>>>> unwritten, portion of the BIP process. Who should get to vote on approval
>>>>> to commit a BIP implementation into Bitcoin Core? Is a simple majority of
>>>>> these voters sufficient for approval? If not, then what is?
>>>>>
>>>>> Raystonn
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing listbitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.orghttps://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>
--089e0160cfaecbefe20519519190
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<div dir=3D"ltr"><a href=3D"https://github.com/pstratem/bitcoin/commits/tes=
tnet4">https://github.com/pstratem/bitcoin/commits/testnet4</a><br><div><br=
></div><div>See these two commits for an example of changing all the testne=
t chain parameters to create an entirely separate testnet network.=C2=A0 Th=
is example "testnet4" changed to different port numbers,=C2=A0pch=
MessageStart magic, and with stupid large block sizes.</div><div><br></div>=
<div><a href=3D"http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=3D509">http://rusty.ozlabs.org/?=
p=3D509</a><br></div><div>Rusty used this to test block propagation latency=
.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Jun 24, 2015 at 11:06 PM, Pindar Wong <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"=
mailto:pindar.wong@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">pindar.wong@gmail.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>In=
the process of 'mining consensus', perhaps before voting there sho=
uld be robust system testing and telemetry.<br><br>May I ask a questions w.=
r.t. Process BIPs, what is the process for establishing a new testnet (e.g.=
for testing with 8MB blocks)?<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888=
"><br><br></font></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888=
">p.<br><br></font></span></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><di=
v class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Jun 25, 2015=
at 1:41 PM, Milly Bitcoin <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:milly@bi=
tcoins.info" target=3D"_blank">milly@bitcoins.info</a>></span> wrote:<br=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=20
=20
=20
<div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
<div>These are the kind of silly responses
you often get when this subject comes up.=C2=A0 Mr. Garzik knows how =
to
ignore messages he doesn't want so I see no need for him to use
the list to attack people he doesn't agree with and/or try to
interfere with discussions of others on the list. <br>
He turns it into a personality discussion rather than a discussion
of Systems Engineering.=C2=A0 He also tries to intimate anyone who
brings up the discussion and "punish" them as a lesson to a=
nyone
else who may raise the issue.=C2=A0=C2=A0 <br>
<br>
It is interesting that people like that are attracted to a
decentralized system.=C2=A0=C2=A0 The reply is simply an attempt at
protecting turf which is why Mr. Garzik's vague replies are never
taken seriously on the subject of decision-making process for the
software. <br>
<br>
Russ<div><div><br>
<br>
<br>
On 6/25/2015 1:07 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote:<br>
</div></div></div><div><div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Ladies & gents, please do not feed the troll.=C2=
=A0
This has been explained to Milly multiple times in the past, on
previous mailing list & github with no impact.
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 7:34 PM, Milly
Bitcoin <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:milly@bitcoins.in=
fo" target=3D"_blank">milly@bitcoins.info</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
<div>I'm sorry but that is the kind of defensive, cultish
response everyone gets when they ask that question.=C2=A0 I=
f
you had a well constructed documented process then you
would be able to point to it ... but you can't.=C2=A0 W=
hile
there are a few bits and pieces scattered=C2=A0 about in
different places there is no coherent plan or process.<br>
<br>
It is easy to make statements like "consensus must be
unanimous" but the issue is that you never have true
100% consensus yet you have to move forward in some
fashion and everyone has to run software with the same
consensus rules.=C2=A0 The issue is how you move forward is
the question that nobody wants to answer because (a) it
is a hard question to answer and (b) developers see it
as a threat to their authority/position.=C2=A0 If people ju=
st
keep shutting down the discussion with a bunch of
cultish stock answers then you are never going to move
forward with developing some kind of process.=C2=A0 <br>
<br>
From what I can see much of the discussion is
personality-driven and not based on Computer Science or
and defined process.=C2=A0 The issue is that a personality
has changed so the process is perceived to be different
and some people want to hard fork.=C2=A0 Previously, the
cultish answer is that Bitcoin development is
decentralized because people can fork the code.=C2=A0 Now
that some developers want to fork the code suddenly it
is a big problem.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Is forking the code part of t=
he
consensus process or is it the work of the devil?=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 The
fact that there is so much diverse opinion on this shows
a defined process has never been fully vetted or
understood.<br>
<br>
I have worked on these processes for many years for
projects orders of magnitudes larger than Bitcoin.=C2=A0 I
can absolutely assure you the current mishmash does not
scale and huge amounts of time are wasted.=C2=A0 That shoul=
d
be readily apparent from the recent discussions and the
recent concern it has caused from people outside the
developer's inner circle.=C2=A0 <br>
<br>
Lack of defined process =3D high risk and wasted effort.<br=
>
<br>
Russ
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 6/24/2015 9:50 PM, Mark Friedenbach wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div>I'm sorry but this is absolutely not the
case, Milly. The reason that people get
defensive is that we have a carefully
constructed process that does work (thank
you very much!) and is well documented. We
talk about it quite often in fact as it is a
defining characteristic of how bitcoin is
developed which differs in some ways from
how other open source software is developed
-- although it remains the same in most
other ways.<br>
<br>
</div>
Changes to the non-consensus sections of
Bitcoin Core tend to get merged when there are
a few reviews, tests, and ACKs from recognized
developers, there are no outstanding
objections, and the maintainer doing the merge
makes a subjective judgement that the code is
ready.<br>
<br>
</div>
Consensus-changes, on the other hand, get merged
into Bitcoin Core only after the above criteria
are met AND an extremely long discussion period
that has given all the relevant stakeholders a
chance to comment, and no significant objections
remain. Consensus-code changes are unanimous.
They must be.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>The sort of process that exists in standards
bodies for example, with working groups and
formal voting procedures, has no place where
changes define the nature and validity of other
people's money. Who has the right to reach into
your pocket and define how you can or cannot
spend your coins? The premise of bitcoin is that
no one has that right, yet that is very much
what we do when consensus code changes are made.
That is why when we make a change to the rules
governing the nature of bitcoin, we must make
sure that everyone is made aware of the change
and consents to it.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>Everyone. Does this work? Does this scale? So
far, it does. Uncontroversial changes, such as
BIP 66, are deployed without issue. Every
indication is that BIP 66 will complete
deployment in the very near future, and we
intend to repeat this process for more
interesting changes such as BIP65:
CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This isn't about no one stepping forward to
be the "decider." This is about no one ha=
ving
the right to decide these things on the behalf
of others. If a contentious change is proposed
and not accepted by the process of consensus,
that is because the process is doing its job at
rejecting controversial changes. It has nothing
to do with personality, and everything to do
with the nature of bitcoin itself.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 24,
2015 at 5:07 PM, Milly Bitcoin <span dir=
=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:milly@bitcoins.info" target=3D"_blank"></a><=
a href=3D"mailto:milly@bitcoins.info" target=3D"_blank">milly@bitcoins.info=
</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I have s=
een
this question asked many times.=C2=A0
Most developers become defensive and
they usually give a very vague
1-sentence answer when this question
is asked.=C2=A0 It seems to be it is
based on personalities rather than
any kind of definable process.=C2=A0 To
have that discussion the
personalities must be separated out
and answers like "such-and-such
wouldn't do that" don't re=
ally do
much to advance the discussion.=C2=A0
Also, the incentive for new
developers to come in is that they
will be paid by companies who want
to influence the code and this
should be considered (some
developers take this statement as an
insult when it is just a statement
of the incentive process).<br>
<br>
The other problem you are having is
the lead developer does not want to
be a "decider" when, in fact,=
he is
a very significant decider.=C2=A0 While
the users have the ultimate choice
in a practical sense the chief
developer is the "decider."=
=C2=A0 Now
people don't want to get him upset
so nobody wants to push the issue or
fully define the process.=C2=A0 Now you
are left with a broken,
unwritten/unspoken process.=C2=A0 While
this type of thing may work with a
small group of developers
businesses/investors looking in from
the outside will see this as a risk.<br=
>
<br>
Until you get passed all the
personality-based arguments you are
going to have a tough time defining
a real process.<br>
<br>
Russ
<div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 6/24/2015 7:41 PM, Raystonn
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> I
would like to start a civil
discussion on an undefined, or
at least unwritten, portion of
the BIP process.=C2=A0 Who should
get to vote on approval to
commit a BIP implementation
into Bitcoin Core?=C2=A0 Is a
simple majority of these
voters sufficient for
approval?=C2=A0 If not, then what
is?<br>
<br>
Raystonn<br>
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