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From: Bryan Bishop <kanzure@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2023 19:06:53 -0500
Message-ID: <CABaSBawHd4C0POxCs5NUA7pAjyz_MR2JmSoCTsC26Kf9H_zEDw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Dr Maxim Orlovsky <orlovsky@protonmail.com>
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Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org,
 lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Lightning-dev] Bitcoin mail list needs an
	explicit moderation policy
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Hi Maxim,

This is exceedingly boring. This is not a good use of your time. There are
thousands of developers subscribed to this mailing list, and we should not
waste their time, including this discussion.

On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 6:44=E2=80=AFPM Dr Maxim Orlovsky via Lightning-dev =
<
lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> What happened next was very unexpected. I am giving the core of the
> conversation over Twitter after in Annex A - with the purpose to showcase
> the problem I=E2=80=99d like to address in this e-mail. From the discussi=
on, it is
> clear that bitcoin-dev mail list lacks clear explicit moderation (or
> peer-review) policies, which must be applied on a non-selective basis.
> Also, Bryan Bishop, as the current moderator, had abused his powers in
> achieving his agenda based on personal likes or dislikes. The conversatio=
n
> went nowhere, and the post got published only after a requirement from
> Peter Todd [9].
>

What exactly is the abuse being alleged here though? Why would it be
surprising that your tweets didn't get the behavior you wanted out of me?
In general mailing list moderators should not be sending items through
based on twitter mobbing, that's a policy you can consider if you want to
think about policies.

Annex A:
>
>    - @kanzure just like to check that our submission to bitcoin-dev
>    hasn=E2=80=99t got to spam <
>    https://twitter.com/lnp_bp/status/1664649328349069320?s=3D61&t=3D9A8uv=
ggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg
>    >
>    - A few mods are reviewing it <
>    https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1664680893548572677?s=3D61&t=3D9A8u=
vggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg
>    >
>    - Oh, so a peer review is required to get to bitcoin-dev mail list?
>    Never read about that requirement anywhere <
>    https://twitter.com/lnp_bp/status/1664695061462777858?s=3D61&t=3D9A8uv=
ggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg>.
>    Seems like bitcoin-dev mail list requirements are now specific to the
>    author :) <
>    https://twitter.com/dr_orlovsky/status/1664695668475142144?s=3D61&t=3D=
9A8uvggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg
>    >
>    - Not the greatest email to pull this over. I'll double check but
>    pretty sure the antagonization is boring me. <
>    https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1664705038315409420?s=3D61&t=3D9A8u=
vggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg
>    >
>    - Not sure I understand what you are saying. Can you please clarify? <
>    https://twitter.com/dr_orlovsky/status/1664705280393859103?s=3D61&t=3D=
9A8uvggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg
>    >
>    - You are boring me and these antics don't make me want to go click
>    approve on your email. <
>    https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1664705509147004946?s=3D61&t=3D9A8u=
vggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg
>    >
>
>
Excluding your (and my) other tweets and any other collaborators' tweets
from your report is kind of weird. I think you should include the other
tweets that you were sending me because it provides context. Zooming out,
the entirety of your complaint seems to be about moderation queue latency
and delay. Why would you, or anyone, allege that that moderator latency is
indicative of me specifically not liking you? Wouldn't it be more likely
that the other moderators and I are looking at your email and talking with
each other asynchronously about whether to suggest edits/reject/submit?

I suspect you may be attributing malice to me because I recently asked you
to stop tagging me on quantum woo and you might have taken that negatively
- please keep in mind that not everyone believes in quantum consciousness
or is interested in hearing about it, and it's okay for people like me to
not want to engage on each of your different interests. There is some
overlap in our interests outside of crypto, but that isn't one of them. I
noticed some odd tweets from you to me after that, so that's why that
incident came to my mind as a possible explanation for this.

Thank you.

- Bryan
https://twitter.com/kanzure

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Maxim,<br><br>This is exceedingly bori=
ng. This is not a good use of your time. There are thousands of developers =
subscribed to this mailing list, and we should not waste their time, includ=
ing this discussion.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>On Fri, Jun 2, 2023 at 6:44=
=E2=80=AFPM Dr Maxim Orlovsky via Lightning-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:light=
ning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">lightning-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,=
204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div> <div dir=3D"auto">What happened next was v=
ery unexpected. I am giving the core of the conversation over Twitter after=
 in Annex A - with the purpose to showcase the problem I=E2=80=99d like to =
address in this e-mail. From the discussion, it is clear that bitcoin-dev m=
ail list lacks clear explicit moderation (or peer-review) policies, which m=
ust be applied on a non-selective basis. Also, Bryan Bishop, as the current=
 moderator, had abused his powers in achieving his agenda based on personal=
 likes or dislikes. The conversation went nowhere, and the post got publish=
ed only after a requirement from Peter Todd [9].<br></div></div></blockquot=
e><div><br>What exactly is the abuse being alleged here though? Why would i=
t be surprising that your tweets didn&#39;t get the behavior you wanted out=
 of me? In general mailing list moderators should not be sending items thro=
ugh based on twitter mobbing, that&#39;s a policy you can consider if you w=
ant to think about policies.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div dir=3D"auto"><p style=3D"margin:0px;line-=
height:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-t=
ransform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><sp=
an>Annex A:</span></p><ul style=3D"list-style-type:&quot;\002014\0000a0\000=
0a0&quot;;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><li sty=
le=3D"margin:0px;line-height:normal"><span></span><span>@kanzure just like =
to check that our submission to bitcoin-dev hasn=E2=80=99t got to spam &lt;=
<a href=3D"https://twitter.com/lnp_bp/status/1664649328349069320?s=3D61&amp=
;t=3D9A8uvggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg" target=3D"_blank">https://twitter.com/lnp_bp/s=
tatus/1664649328349069320?s=3D61&amp;t=3D9A8uvggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg</a>&gt;</sp=
an></li><li style=3D"margin:0px;line-height:normal"><span></span><span>A fe=
w mods are reviewing it &lt;<a href=3D"https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1=
664680893548572677?s=3D61&amp;t=3D9A8uvggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1664680893548572677?s=3D61&amp;t=3D9A8u=
vggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg</a>&gt;</span></li><li style=3D"margin:0px;line-height:n=
ormal"><span></span><span>Oh, so a peer review is required to get to bitcoi=
n-dev mail list? Never read about that requirement anywhere &lt;<a href=3D"=
https://twitter.com/lnp_bp/status/1664695061462777858?s=3D61&amp;t=3D9A8uvg=
gqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg" target=3D"_blank">https://twitter.com/lnp_bp/status/16646=
95061462777858?s=3D61&amp;t=3D9A8uvggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg</a>&gt;. Seems like bi=
tcoin-dev mail list requirements are now specific to the author :) &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"https://twitter.com/dr_orlovsky/status/1664695668475142144?s=3D61&am=
p;t=3D9A8uvggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg" target=3D"_blank">https://twitter.com/dr_orlo=
vsky/status/1664695668475142144?s=3D61&amp;t=3D9A8uvggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg</a>&g=
t;</span></li><li style=3D"margin:0px;line-height:normal"><span></span><spa=
n>Not the greatest email to pull this over. I&#39;ll double check but prett=
y sure the antagonization is boring me. &lt;<a href=3D"https://twitter.com/=
kanzure/status/1664705038315409420?s=3D61&amp;t=3D9A8uvggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1664705038315409420?s=
=3D61&amp;t=3D9A8uvggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg</a>&gt;</span></li><li style=3D"margin=
:0px;line-height:normal"><span></span><span>Not sure I understand what you =
are saying. Can you please clarify? &lt;<a href=3D"https://twitter.com/dr_o=
rlovsky/status/1664705280393859103?s=3D61&amp;t=3D9A8uvggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://twitter.com/dr_orlovsky/status/1664705280393859103=
?s=3D61&amp;t=3D9A8uvggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg</a>&gt;</span></li><li style=3D"marg=
in:0px;line-height:normal"><span></span><span>You are boring me and these a=
ntics don&#39;t make me want to go click approve on your email. &lt;<a href=
=3D"https://twitter.com/kanzure/status/1664705509147004946?s=3D61&amp;t=3D9=
A8uvggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg" target=3D"_blank">https://twitter.com/kanzure/status=
/1664705509147004946?s=3D61&amp;t=3D9A8uvggqKVKV3sT4HPlQyg</a>&gt;</span></=
li></ul></div></div></blockquote><div><br>Excluding your (and my) other twe=
ets and any other collaborators&#39; tweets from your report is kind of wei=
rd. I think you should include the other tweets that you were sending me be=
cause it provides context. Zooming out, the entirety of your complaint seem=
s to be about moderation queue latency and delay.=C2=A0Why would you, or an=
yone, allege that that moderator latency is indicative of me specifically n=
ot liking you? Wouldn&#39;t it be more likely that the other moderators and=
 I are looking at your email and talking with each other asynchronously abo=
ut whether to suggest edits/reject/submit?</div><div><br></div><div>I suspe=
ct you may be attributing malice to me because I recently=C2=A0asked you to=
 stop tagging me on quantum woo and you might have taken that negatively - =
please keep in mind that not everyone believes in quantum consciousness or =
is interested in hearing about it, and it&#39;s okay for people like me to =
not want to engage on each of your different interests. There is some overl=
ap in our interests outside of crypto, but that isn&#39;t one of them. I no=
ticed some odd tweets from you to me after that, so that&#39;s why that inc=
ident came to my mind as a possible explanation for this.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Thank you.<br><br></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signa=
ture"><div dir=3D"ltr">- Bryan<br><a href=3D"https://twitter.com/kanzure" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://twitter.com/kanzure</a></div></div></div>

--0000000000002a130b05fd2e7373--