1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
|
Return-Path: <bnagaev@gmail.com>
Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [140.211.166.133])
by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFBCAC0037
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Sat, 30 Dec 2023 03:21:16 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A640140111
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Sat, 30 Dec 2023 03:21:16 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org A640140111
Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org;
dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com
header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20230601 header.b=e1Za/I1F
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.099
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.099 tagged_above=-999 required=5
tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001,
RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001]
autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1])
by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
with ESMTP id BRFiIRaETHEo
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Sat, 30 Dec 2023 03:21:15 +0000 (UTC)
Received: from mail-il1-x132.google.com (mail-il1-x132.google.com
[IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::132])
by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F2D6400BA
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Sat, 30 Dec 2023 03:21:15 +0000 (UTC)
DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp2.osuosl.org 9F2D6400BA
Received: by mail-il1-x132.google.com with SMTP id
e9e14a558f8ab-35fcd6f8aa6so28474035ab.0
for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>;
Fri, 29 Dec 2023 19:21:15 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1703906474; x=1704511274;
darn=lists.linuxfoundation.org;
h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from
:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date
:message-id:reply-to;
bh=cFGNTPGksVZkcc66XgtXMLuWb3MGrstPSzCucVHMO8Y=;
b=e1Za/I1FzGlVp860FBW87wM/N5pcAHVZoe0OJbIxgZc6c4wvrA/YzaAetSHCNIahkC
yOBudf4qH0WOJl4B4lcXPh7QVTANnzQLmgzPS5RB49dqVaooPpkveBvQdZT84DDKqTyD
zrbckouMszcv6CA3+H3rlPCgGQAkOr4iE59FQ9PTxzfX89yGTG0H82aLeC39euIAjWZZ
NHUyYsCJnZcFJX3s6BCH4Nis/fgE4xLEsCbbwSj4nRfba5v0td3MqzaEEDyYImh0tFc6
j61Lf+7zpW/p4WVIZ+Nfc8NONqcSfU0AcASn+lxEWsMGq5vH0raZwDQpObPpEvKQ6Eof
wnyA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1703906474; x=1704511274;
h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from
:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc
:subject:date:message-id:reply-to;
bh=cFGNTPGksVZkcc66XgtXMLuWb3MGrstPSzCucVHMO8Y=;
b=OwZbdQHlnxj7G3clGKPAm4Zx7PLcBxTZc+/ECsDsAXcv1gVVWEe5CnEtHQ0Nm+rvtF
FGg66RVagBXNin4dEMT9zRyCwNkwEKIOsmjxAWR/1ynN/8o6iZqNGpSXrv/8hERLTeFR
R24/JXbbMu9x1D/za/v8ElSIBOOCGurTvDv9ja6Vg2bNWr3GFD9dYDBW+1xLLQW4Xkue
TXCilmXPlnuDp1md6riaUBtBoJ/j7e084CsBcm/T9bIMM+we6eRfe2wiXsSKDzBIEdNr
LXEgL0ql4l/i09dUJV2DZKSxzzeXAq8dcvHY+sGCJ8+lCMIT9pFKC43x6Tm6TDa+CNW7
IQ1g==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yz6TjcjdLtkRu/YJwm7U2GFI5TCoHuxaEla2kJhBVqFOBQtPOMe
q8U7rsDYQqlmMcho1YHM4gwNPCjTIjkmtmuA9FH0Ff00Sq2Qqg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEtSNRXMxKouA30vYlztzGuQExkKj1+C3YFAkGygsyjFZr1KVczFt4hItYz2e2q/HjJSrPT4RwxJrniYSPQjEQ=
X-Received: by 2002:a92:c24b:0:b0:35f:87ac:10d4 with SMTP id
k11-20020a92c24b000000b0035f87ac10d4mr15763249ilo.5.1703906474601; Fri, 29
Dec 2023 19:21:14 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <dkAxjJIFndwa9WN8Hgrp92I3l3IH0SGRhheMntDfaaDjGTOOnv0s8zIivWE0yiHhh9ty0TQ_IUvkg9Zrs2KFjdSoH1_DrvCymhxA9hF-6Ko=@protonmail.com>
<8656E5B3-EDC7-4C00-93AB-C61AC6C22563@voskuil.org>
<786297315b27fdecc1a21cc40ef4b993@dtrt.org>
<CAFC_Vt6yk2MwkUhiBKyGmOArVrU9VCdf27qR8wDMMOz_ONjt=A@mail.gmail.com>
<7b210ceabf8f5f4b58b2f6b68e6a7037@dtrt.org>
In-Reply-To: <7b210ceabf8f5f4b58b2f6b68e6a7037@dtrt.org>
From: Nagaev Boris <bnagaev@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 00:20:37 -0300
Message-ID: <CAFC_Vt5iEvCMgUGAEgSYdd2CByR3Q3M=9tf8Uz7TK1oCPHXRvA@mail.gmail.com>
To: "David A. Harding" <dave@dtrt.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 15:58:26 +0000
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Lightning Safely With Feerate-Dependent
Timelocks
X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15
Precedence: list
List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/>
List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>,
<mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2023 03:21:17 -0000
On Sat, Dec 30, 2023 at 12:11=E2=80=AFAM David A. Harding <dave@dtrt.org> w=
rote:
>
> On 2023-12-29 15:17, Nagaev Boris wrote:
> > Feerate-Dependent Timelocks do create incentives to accept out-of-band
> > fees to decrease in-band fees and speed up mining of transactions
> > using FDT! Miners can make a 5% discount on fees paid out-of-band and
> > many people will use it. Observed fees decrease and FDT transactions
> > mature faster. It is beneficial for both parties involved: senders of
> > transactions save 5% on fees, miners get FDT transactions mined faster
> > and get more profits (for the sake of example more than 5%).
>
> Hi Nagaev,
>
> That's an interesting idea, but I don't think that it works due to the
> free rider problem: miner Alice offers a 5% discount on fees paid out of
> band now in the hopes of collecting more than 5% in extra fees later due
> to increased urgency from users that depended on FDTs. However,
> sometimes the person who actually collects extra fees is miner Bob who
> never offered a 5% discount. By not offering a discount, Bob earns more
> money on average per block than Alice (all other things being equal),
> eventually forcing her to stop offering the discount or to leave the
> market.
>
> Additionally, if nearly everyone was paying discounted fees out of band,
> participants in contract protocols using FDTs would know to use
> proportionally higher FDT amounts (e.g. 5% over their actual desired
> fee), negating the benefit to miners of offering discounted fees.
>
> -Dave
Good points. It makes sense!
--=20
Best regards,
Boris Nagaev
|
