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From: Ahmed Zsales <ahmedzsales18@gmail.com>
To: "Warren Togami Jr." <wtogami@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Open Block Chain Licence, BIP[xxxx] Draft
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Thanks Warren, very good feedback.

To avoid taking up too much of everyone's time at this point, I
think Wladimir's suggestion of placing this in a BIP advisory box for a
while is a good one. We did indicate that this might take a while to
gestate.

It is probably for us to do some further investigations and possibly engage
some input from a few miners.  We don't want to play at being lawyer, but
our review does point towards this being something worth coming back to.

In terms of citation, we did reference a case called *Feist*. We also found
some general database protection details which are relevant to the USA, if
you need any bed time reading:

http://copyright.gov/reports/dbase.html

For now, thanks to everyone for feedback and comments.

Regards,

Ahmed

On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 9:56 AM, Warren Togami Jr. via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> I am skeptical that any license for the blockchain itself is needed
> because of the possibility that the blockchain is not entitled to copyrig=
ht
> protection.  While I am not a lawyer, I have stared hard at the copyright
> doctrine of the U.S. in multiple law school Intellectual Property courses
> and during my previous career in Open Source Software where copyright
> matters a great deal.
>
> As each owner of a
>> coin makes a transfer by digitally signing a hash of the previous
>> transaction along with the
>> new owner=E2=80=99s public key, the block chain is a perpetual compilati=
on of
>> unique data.
>> *It is therefore compiled in a creative and non-obvious way.* In the
>> USA, for example, these
>> attributes confer legal protections for databases which have been ruled
>> upon by the courts.
>
>
> This portion of your paper I believe is not true and requires citations i=
f
> you want to be convincing.  Is it truly "creative and non-obvious"?  My
> understanding under at least U.S. law, the blockchain may not be entitled
> to copyright protection because a compilation created in a mechanical
> manner is not a creative work of a human.
>
> I suppose a transaction could contain a "creative" element if it contains
> arbitrary bytes of a message or clever script.  For the most part though
> most of what you call "digitally signing a hash of the previous transacti=
on
> along with the new owner=E2=80=99s public key" is purely the result of a =
mechanical
> process and really is not creative.  Furthermore, even if that output wer=
e
> "non-obvious", obviousness has nothing to do with copyrightability.
>
> Your license is correct in intent in attempting to exclude from the
> royalty free grant works within the blockchain that themselves may be
> subject to copyright of third parties.  The elements within the blockchai=
n
> may be entitled individually to copyright if they are in any way a creati=
ve
> work of a human, but as a compilation I am doubtful the blockchain itself
> is entitled to copyright.
>
> I understand copyright with respect to databases can be different under
> other jurisdictions.  Your paper mentions the European database law that =
is
> indeed different from the U.S.  Your paper is incomplete in scholarly and
> legal citations.  I myself and we as a community don't know enough.  I
> suppose this topic merits further study.
>
> Warren Togami
>
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 6:30 AM, Ahmed Zsales via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> We believe the network requires a block chain licence to supplement the
>> existing MIT Licence which we believe only covers the core reference cli=
ent
>> software.
>>
>> Replacing or amending the existing MIT Licence is beyond the scope of
>> this draft BIP.
>>
>> Rationale and details of our draft BIP for discussion and evaluation are
>> here:
>>
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwEbhrQ4ELzBMVFxajNZa2hzMTg/view?usp=3D=
sharing
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Ahmed
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks Warren, very good feedback.<div><br></div><div>To a=
void taking up too much of everyone&#39;s time at this point, I think=C2=A0=
Wladimir&#39;s suggestion of placing this in a BIP advisory box for a while=
 is a good one. We did indicate that this might take a while to gestate.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>It is probably for us to do some further investigati=
ons and possibly engage some input from a few miners.=C2=A0 We don&#39;t wa=
nt to play at being lawyer, but our review does point towards this being so=
mething worth coming back to.</div><div><br></div><div>In terms of citation=
, we did reference a case called <i>Feist</i>. We also found some general d=
atabase protection details which are relevant to the USA, if you need any b=
ed time reading:</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"http://copyright.gov/r=
eports/dbase.html">http://copyright.gov/reports/dbase.html</a>=C2=A0</div><=
div><br></div><div>For now, thanks to everyone for feedback and comments.</=
div><div><br></div><div>Regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Ahmed</div></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 2, 20=
15 at 9:56 AM, Warren Togami Jr. via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitc=
oin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I am skeptical that any license for th=
e blockchain itself is needed because of the possibility that the blockchai=
n is not entitled to copyright protection.=C2=A0 While I am not a lawyer, I=
 have stared hard at the copyright doctrine of the U.S. in multiple law sch=
ool Intellectual Property courses and during my previous career in Open Sou=
rce Software where copyright matters a great deal.</div><div><br></div><div=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border=
-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;=
padding-left:1ex">As each owner of a<br>coin makes a transfer by digitally =
signing a hash of the previous transaction along with the=C2=A0<br>new owne=
r=E2=80=99s public key, the block chain is a perpetual compilation of uniqu=
e data. <b><font color=3D"#ff0000"><u>It is=C2=A0<br>therefore compiled in =
a creative and non-obvious way.</u></font></b> In the USA, for example, the=
se=C2=A0<span class=3D""><br>attributes confer legal protections for databa=
ses which have been ruled upon by the courts.</span></blockquote></div><div=
><br></div><div>This portion of your paper I believe is not true and requir=
es citations if you want to be convincing.=C2=A0 Is it truly &quot;creative=
 and non-obvious&quot;?=C2=A0 My understanding under at least U.S. law, the=
 blockchain may not be entitled to copyright protection because a compilati=
on created in a mechanical manner is not a creative work of a human.</div><=
div><br></div><div>I suppose a transaction could contain a &quot;creative&q=
uot; element if it contains arbitrary bytes of a message or clever script.=
=C2=A0 For the most part though most of what you call &quot;digitally signi=
ng a hash of the previous transaction along with the new owner=E2=80=99s pu=
blic key&quot; is purely the result of a mechanical process and really is n=
ot creative.=C2=A0 Furthermore, even if that output were &quot;non-obvious&=
quot;, obviousness has nothing to do with copyrightability.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>Your license is correct in intent in attempting to exclude from t=
he royalty free grant works within the blockchain that themselves may be su=
bject to copyright of third parties.=C2=A0 The elements within the blockcha=
in may be entitled individually to copyright if they are in any way a creat=
ive work of a human, but as a compilation I am doubtful the blockchain itse=
lf is entitled to copyright.<br></div><div><div><br></div><div><div>I under=
stand copyright with respect to databases can be different under other juri=
sdictions.=C2=A0 Your paper mentions the European database law that is inde=
ed different from the U.S.=C2=A0 Your paper is incomplete in scholarly and =
legal citations.=C2=A0 I myself and we as a community don&#39;t know enough=
.=C2=A0 I suppose this topic merits further study.</div></div></div><div><b=
r></div><div>Warren Togami</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"h5">On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 6:30 AM, Ahm=
ed Zsales via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-d=
ev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoun=
dation.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br></div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-=
color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div =
class=3D"h5"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hello,<div><br></div><div>We believe the netw=
ork requires a block chain licence to supplement the existing MIT Licence w=
hich we believe only covers the core reference client software.</div><div><=
br></div><div>Replacing or amending the existing MIT Licence is beyond the =
scope of this draft BIP.</div><div><br></div><div>Rationale and details of =
our draft BIP for discussion and evaluation are here:</div><div><br></div><=
div><a href=3D"https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwEbhrQ4ELzBMVFxajNZa2hzMTg=
/view?usp=3Dsharing" target=3D"_blank">https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwE=
bhrQ4ELzBMVFxajNZa2hzMTg/view?usp=3Dsharing</a><br></div><div><br></div><di=
v>Regards,</div><div><br></div><div>Ahmed</div></div>
<br></div></div><span class=3D"">__________________________________________=
_____<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">=
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
<br></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
bitcoin-dev mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.=
linuxfoundation.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail=
man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

--bcaec501c594e30f17051ec983bd--