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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 17:42:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Antoine Riard <antoine.riard@gmail.com>
To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Message-Id: <1d532e88-d40a-4417-bdac-6c4bbf90c26en@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <6c222c758e10e8061ccdcc180b1826a3@dtrt.org>
References: <Zpk7EYgmlgPP3Y9D@petertodd.org>
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 <Zp5GW/yHzPB8wyjU@petertodd.org>
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 <Zp674YtMTaUX3imH@petertodd.org>
 <6c222c758e10e8061ccdcc180b1826a3@dtrt.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] RBFR makes the CPFP carve-out obsolete with cluster
 mempool, without upgrading LN nodes; TRUC/V3 does not
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Hi Dave,

> I'm sorry you've been unable to keep up with protocol development and
> are confusing that for me being dishonest and toxic. May I suggest you
> subscribe to the weekly Optech newsletter? It's free.

See my review comments on the imbuance mechanism PR on bitcoin core, I
think it's broken in the sense that you can escapce the imbuanche mechanism
by playing on commitment output scriptpubkye / amount collision.

Bitcoin core is a public project so you're free to access the 5 months old
comments now and make your own opinion. For now, I think there is no bitcoi=
n
core code available for a robust imbuanche mechanism, so this whole roadmap=
=20
thing you're presenting in your post or in the bitcoin optech newsletter I=
=20
don't
know if it's technically sound, and not a bit misleading for the bitcoin=20
industry
players periodically reading it.

Best,
Antoine
ots hash: a75c98ab5166c541ecba5e579639f359e82ff315df89b04264b29f8dfaa87502

Le lundi 22 juillet 2024 =C3=A0 23:10:33 UTC+1, David A. Harding a =C3=A9cr=
it :

> On 2024-07-22 10:06, Peter Todd wrote:
> > can [you] point to actual "significant discussion and analysis"
> > of the idea
>
> The idea for imbued TRUC was developed in part during a live
> discussion with LN maintainers:
>
> https://btctranscripts.com/lightning-specification/lightning-2024-01-15-s=
pecification-call/
>
> I'm aware of three discussions about it on the Delving Bitcoin Forum:
>
> -=20
>
> https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/lightning-transactions-with-v3-and-ephemeral=
-anchors/418/2
> -=20
>
> https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/sibling-eviction-for-v3-transactions/472#ben=
efits-1
> - (as previously linked)=20
>
> https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/analysis-of-attempting-to-imbue-ln-commitmen=
t-transaction-spends-with-v3-semantics/527
>
> Each of those discussions was summarized by a Bitcoin Optech Newsletter,
> a publication read by many Bitcoin and LN protocol developers
> (disclosure: I co-author the newsletter):
>
> "Adding this policy and automatically applying it to current LN=20
> anchors
> will allow the CPFP carve-out rule to be removed, which is necessary=20
> for
> cluster mempool to be implemented, which should allow making
> replacements of all kinds more incentive-compatible in the future."
>
>
> https://bitcoinops.org/en/newsletters/2024/01/31/#kindred-replace-by-fee
>
> "Imbued v3 logic: In response to concerns voiced in the LN spec=20
> meeting
> that it may take a long time for LN to design, implement, and deploy
> these changes, Gregory Sanders proposed an intermediate stage with
> temporary special treatment of transactions that look like current
> anchors-style LN commitment transactions, allowing Bitcoin Core to
> deploy cluster mempool without being blocked by LN development."
>
> https://bitcoinops.org/en/newsletters/2024/01/24/#imbued-v3-logic
>
> "[...] research into the idea of automatically applying v3 transaction
> relay policy to anchors-style LN commitment and fee-bumping=20
> transactions
> (see Newsletter #286 for the underlying imbued v3 proposal)."
>
>
>
> https://bitcoinops.org/en/newsletters/2024/02/14/#what-would-have-happene=
d-if-v3-semantics-had-been-applied-to-anchor-outputs-a-year-ago
>
> The word "imbue" is mentioned in 7 separate posts by 4 separate authors
> in a Bitcoin Core discussion issue that includes comments from three
> different LN implementation maintainers plus @petertodd, who I assumed
> was you: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/29319
>
> That thread also links to a draft implementation of imbued v3, which was
> used for the Analysis forum post:
> https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/29427
>
> As discussed in the "sibling eviction" thread (summarized in the
> 2024-01-31 newsletter), one of the necessary parts for imbued TRUC to be
> effective at replacing CPFP-CO is sibling eviction. A version of that
> (currently only for opt-in TRUC) was merged into Bitcoin Core several=20
> months
> ago: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/29306
>
> I note that none of the above was hidden or hard to find. All three of
> the discussion summaries quoted above are linked on the Bitcoin Optech
> topic page about v3 relay/TRUC, and two of them are also linked on the
> topic pages about CPFP-CO and anchor outputs. Most of the other stuff I
> found by searching the bitcoin/bitcoin repository for the word "imbue":
>
> - https://bitcoinops.org/en/topics/version-3-transaction-relay/
> - https://bitcoinops.org/en/topics/cpfp-carve-out/
> - https://bitcoinops.org/en/topics/anchor-outputs/
>
> > Frankly, unless you can point to actual "significant discussion and=20
> > analysis"
> > of the idea, it's dishonest and toxic of you to portray it as such as=
=20
> > you
> > should know better.
>
> I'm sorry you've been unable to keep up with protocol development and
> are confusing that for me being dishonest and toxic. May I suggest you
> subscribe to the weekly Optech newsletter? It's free.
>
> -Dave
>

--=20
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
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bitcoindev/1d532e88-d40a-4417-bdac-6c4bbf90c26en%40googlegroups.com.

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Hi Dave,<br /><br />&gt; I'm sorry you've been unable to keep up with proto=
col development and<br />&gt; are confusing that for me being dishonest and=
 toxic. May I suggest you<br />&gt; subscribe to the weekly Optech newslett=
er? It's free.<br /><br />See my review comments on the imbuance mechanism =
PR on bitcoin core, I<br />think it's broken in the sense that you can esca=
pce the imbuanche mechanism<br />by playing on commitment output scriptpubk=
ye / amount collision.<br /><br />Bitcoin core is a public project so you'r=
e free to access the 5 months old<br />comments now and make your own opini=
on. For now, I think there is no bitcoin<br />core code available for a rob=
ust imbuanche mechanism, so this whole roadmap <br />thing you're presentin=
g in your post or in the bitcoin optech newsletter I don't<br />know if it'=
s technically sound, and not a bit misleading for the bitcoin industry<br /=
>players periodically reading it.<br /><br />Best,<br />Antoine<br />ots ha=
sh: a75c98ab5166c541ecba5e579639f359e82ff315df89b04264b29f8dfaa87502<br /><=
br /><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_attr">Le l=
undi 22 juillet 2024 =C3=A0 23:10:33 UTC+1, David A. Harding a =C3=A9crit=
=C2=A0:<br/></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 =
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">On 20=
24-07-22 10:06, Peter Todd wrote:
<br>&gt; can [you] point to actual &quot;significant discussion and analysi=
s&quot;
<br>&gt; of the idea
<br>
<br>The idea for imbued TRUC was developed in part during a live
<br>discussion with LN maintainers:
<br><a href=3D"https://btctranscripts.com/lightning-specification/lightning=
-2024-01-15-specification-call/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-sa=
feredirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Dfr&amp;q=3Dhttps://btctran=
scripts.com/lightning-specification/lightning-2024-01-15-specification-call=
/&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1721868068925000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw1Yi5sGlpUAC=
UjYklobm5BT">https://btctranscripts.com/lightning-specification/lightning-2=
024-01-15-specification-call/</a>
<br>
<br>I&#39;m aware of three discussions about it on the Delving Bitcoin Foru=
m:
<br>
<br>-=20
<br><a href=3D"https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/lightning-transactions-with-v3-=
and-ephemeral-anchors/418/2" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-safere=
directurl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Dfr&amp;q=3Dhttps://delvingbitc=
oin.org/t/lightning-transactions-with-v3-and-ephemeral-anchors/418/2&amp;so=
urce=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1721868068925000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw0hNa6owH17SJEQB4NgS=
4hZ">https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/lightning-transactions-with-v3-and-epheme=
ral-anchors/418/2</a>
<br>-=20
<br><a href=3D"https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/sibling-eviction-for-v3-transac=
tions/472#benefits-1" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-saferedirectu=
rl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Dfr&amp;q=3Dhttps://delvingbitcoin.org=
/t/sibling-eviction-for-v3-transactions/472%23benefits-1&amp;source=3Dgmail=
&amp;ust=3D1721868068925000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw3paSYHydKWrFt4jR77l--0">https:/=
/delvingbitcoin.org/t/sibling-eviction-for-v3-transactions/472#benefits-1</=
a>
<br>- (as previously linked)=20
<br><a href=3D"https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/analysis-of-attempting-to-imbue=
-ln-commitment-transaction-spends-with-v3-semantics/527" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"nofollow" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Dfr=
&amp;q=3Dhttps://delvingbitcoin.org/t/analysis-of-attempting-to-imbue-ln-co=
mmitment-transaction-spends-with-v3-semantics/527&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;us=
t=3D1721868068925000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw34GXadfqKY4pMHSUOkJpQC">https://delvin=
gbitcoin.org/t/analysis-of-attempting-to-imbue-ln-commitment-transaction-sp=
ends-with-v3-semantics/527</a>
<br>
<br>Each of those discussions was summarized by a Bitcoin Optech Newsletter=
,
<br>a publication read by many Bitcoin and LN protocol developers
<br>(disclosure: I co-author the newsletter):
<br>
<br>   &quot;Adding this policy and automatically applying it to current LN=
=20
<br>anchors
<br>   will allow the CPFP carve-out rule to be removed, which is necessary=
=20
<br>for
<br>   cluster mempool to be implemented, which should allow making
<br>   replacements of all kinds more incentive-compatible in the future.&q=
uot;
<br>
<br>  =20
<br><a href=3D"https://bitcoinops.org/en/newsletters/2024/01/31/#kindred-re=
place-by-fee" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-saferedirecturl=3D"ht=
tps://www.google.com/url?hl=3Dfr&amp;q=3Dhttps://bitcoinops.org/en/newslett=
ers/2024/01/31/%23kindred-replace-by-fee&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D17218=
68068925000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw3ejmYW2_nwcRfTr4ZXVZw6">https://bitcoinops.org/=
en/newsletters/2024/01/31/#kindred-replace-by-fee</a>
<br>
<br>   &quot;Imbued v3 logic: In response to concerns voiced in the LN spec=
=20
<br>meeting
<br>   that it may take a long time for LN to design, implement, and deploy
<br>   these changes, Gregory Sanders proposed an intermediate stage with
<br>   temporary special treatment of transactions that look like current
<br>   anchors-style LN commitment transactions, allowing Bitcoin Core to
<br>   deploy cluster mempool without being blocked by LN development.&quot=
;
<br>
<br>   <a href=3D"https://bitcoinops.org/en/newsletters/2024/01/24/#imbued-=
v3-logic" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https:=
//www.google.com/url?hl=3Dfr&amp;q=3Dhttps://bitcoinops.org/en/newsletters/=
2024/01/24/%23imbued-v3-logic&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1721868068925000=
&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw2nFLSgSsdKeqRqIqHpZyo5">https://bitcoinops.org/en/newslett=
ers/2024/01/24/#imbued-v3-logic</a>
<br>
<br>   &quot;[...] research into the idea of automatically applying v3 tran=
saction
<br>   relay policy to anchors-style LN commitment and fee-bumping=20
<br>transactions
<br>   (see Newsletter #286 for the underlying imbued v3 proposal).&quot;
<br>
<br>  =20
<br><a href=3D"https://bitcoinops.org/en/newsletters/2024/02/14/#what-would=
-have-happened-if-v3-semantics-had-been-applied-to-anchor-outputs-a-year-ag=
o" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.g=
oogle.com/url?hl=3Dfr&amp;q=3Dhttps://bitcoinops.org/en/newsletters/2024/02=
/14/%23what-would-have-happened-if-v3-semantics-had-been-applied-to-anchor-=
outputs-a-year-ago&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1721868068925000&amp;usg=3D=
AOvVaw0NnHBENjK9UWTrBoSpCzHP">https://bitcoinops.org/en/newsletters/2024/02=
/14/#what-would-have-happened-if-v3-semantics-had-been-applied-to-anchor-ou=
tputs-a-year-ago</a>
<br>
<br>The word &quot;imbue&quot; is mentioned in 7 separate posts by 4 separa=
te authors
<br>in a Bitcoin Core discussion issue that includes comments from three
<br>different LN implementation maintainers plus @petertodd, who I assumed
<br>was you: <a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/29319" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google=
.com/url?hl=3Dfr&amp;q=3Dhttps://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/29319&am=
p;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1721868068925000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw25oeCrAGKB-3iqh=
44CYnhU">https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/29319</a>
<br>
<br>That thread also links to a draft implementation of imbued v3, which wa=
s
<br>used for the Analysis forum post:
<br><a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/29427" target=3D"_bl=
ank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=
=3Dfr&amp;q=3Dhttps://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/29427&amp;source=3Dgm=
ail&amp;ust=3D1721868068925000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw2L0hHOjx0yMJ0Hd-yN1YBa">http=
s://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/29427</a>
<br>
<br>As discussed in the &quot;sibling eviction&quot; thread (summarized in =
the
<br>2024-01-31 newsletter), one of the necessary parts for imbued TRUC to b=
e
<br>effective at replacing CPFP-CO is sibling eviction.  A version of that
<br>(currently only for opt-in TRUC) was merged into Bitcoin Core several=
=20
<br>months
<br>ago: <a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/29306" target=
=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com=
/url?hl=3Dfr&amp;q=3Dhttps://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/29306&amp;sour=
ce=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1721868068925000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw0-HBJDxkNon4mhCZlLFzU=
G">https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/29306</a>
<br>
<br>I note that none of the above was hidden or hard to find.  All three of
<br>the discussion summaries quoted above are linked on the Bitcoin Optech
<br>topic page about v3 relay/TRUC, and two of them are also linked on the
<br>topic pages about CPFP-CO and anchor outputs.  Most of the other stuff =
I
<br>found by searching the bitcoin/bitcoin repository for the word &quot;im=
bue&quot;:
<br>
<br>- <a href=3D"https://bitcoinops.org/en/topics/version-3-transaction-rel=
ay/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www=
.google.com/url?hl=3Dfr&amp;q=3Dhttps://bitcoinops.org/en/topics/version-3-=
transaction-relay/&amp;source=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1721868068925000&amp;usg=3D=
AOvVaw0EI06XAc3KAcXaZdBFdclm">https://bitcoinops.org/en/topics/version-3-tr=
ansaction-relay/</a>
<br>- <a href=3D"https://bitcoinops.org/en/topics/cpfp-carve-out/" target=
=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com=
/url?hl=3Dfr&amp;q=3Dhttps://bitcoinops.org/en/topics/cpfp-carve-out/&amp;s=
ource=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1721868068925000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw1-798FhYgYKcKWPS0y=
W7Hm">https://bitcoinops.org/en/topics/cpfp-carve-out/</a>
<br>- <a href=3D"https://bitcoinops.org/en/topics/anchor-outputs/" target=
=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com=
/url?hl=3Dfr&amp;q=3Dhttps://bitcoinops.org/en/topics/anchor-outputs/&amp;s=
ource=3Dgmail&amp;ust=3D1721868068925000&amp;usg=3DAOvVaw3zFbpApRCc--RU7YTm=
bVKY">https://bitcoinops.org/en/topics/anchor-outputs/</a>
<br>
<br>&gt; Frankly, unless you can point to actual &quot;significant discussi=
on and=20
<br>&gt; analysis&quot;
<br>&gt; of the idea, it&#39;s dishonest and toxic of you to portray it as =
such as=20
<br>&gt; you
<br>&gt; should know better.
<br>
<br>I&#39;m sorry you&#39;ve been unable to keep up with protocol developme=
nt and
<br>are confusing that for me being dishonest and toxic.  May I suggest you
<br>subscribe to the weekly Optech newsletter?  It&#39;s free.
<br>
<br>-Dave
<br></blockquote></div>

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