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From: Daniel Lipshitz <daniel@gap600.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2022 15:17:16 +0200
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To: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org>
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Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] [Opt-in full-RBF] Zero-conf apps in immediate
	danger
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The statistics that I have stated are based on trxs that rely on our tool.
They are not overstated, this is a reflection of the 0conf market on BTC.

They are trxs which our clients query via the API and which I clients pay
subscription for.

There is no point for clients to send us trxs they don=E2=80=99t want or ne=
ed our
response from. We are a B2b provider so we are not sure how and who the end
users and applications are.

Coinify definitely doesn=E2=80=99t send us all their traffic, as I would th=
ink some
of our other clients.

Here is some external confirmation a bit old though but still-
https://blog.coinpayments.net/news-features/gap600
You can also see our video of Coinspaid using our service on our site - all
our Marcom is a bit old.

We service primarily payment processors and liquidity providers and not end
merchants so I can=E2=80=99t say how and to who end clients implement it.

If AML/KYC was enough to prevent double spends all exchanges would offer
0conf.

I don=E2=80=99t know the split with our clients as it=E2=80=99s non of our =
business but
definitely a significant amount of end users are not Kyced for the trxs.

Best would be to try and talk to some of our major clients - ie
Coinpayments, Coinspaid and Coinify.



On Sat, 3 Dec 2022 at 14:12 Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 03, 2022 at 01:01:16PM +0200, Daniel Lipshitz wrote:
> > Shapeshift used to be clients in fact one of our first when we started =
in
> > 2016.
> >
> > They no longer use our service but from time to time use us for fee
> > recommendations. So we actually should remove their logo as a current
> > client.
>
> Yes you should. When did ShapeShift stop using your service? Did they
> explain
> why?
>
> > If you wish to test it out try find a merchant using Coinpayments or
> > Coinspaid.
> >
> > Also some of our non custodial liquidity providers offer service no
> > custodial wallets. I am not sure which.
>
> I see that you also advertise that Gap600 is "Trusted by" Coindirect and
> Coinify, both AML/KYC crypto exchanges. Obviously, with full AML/KYC
> double-spends are not much of a concern. And it's not even clear that
> either accepts zeroconf anyway, as I'll explain later.
>
> On this list you claimed that:
>
> >  1. As of end of Nov 2022 - GAP600 has processed i.e responded to circa
> >  15M transactions
> >  2. These transactions have a cumulative value of 2.3B USD value.
> >  3. We currently are seeing circa 1.5M transactions queired per month.
>
> What's the value and number of transactions that *actually* rely on your
> unconfirmed transaction tools? The only category that would apply for is
> goods
> provided immediately and irrovocably, without AML/KYC. Because it sounds
> like
> these figures may be significantly overstated.
>
>
> Re: CoinsPaid, what you say here makes it also sound like it relies on
> AML/KYC:
>
> > CoinsPaid applies a special software tool across its solutions to condu=
ct
> > stringent KYC procedures and a risk-based approach to CDD that verify
> user
> > identities to mitigate fraud, money laundering and other activities
> linked to
> > criminality and terrorism.
> https://www.gap600.com/uncategorized/coinspaid/
>
> Re: Coindirect, the documentation I can find appears to say that
> confirmations
> are required before you can use coins deposited into Coindirect:
>
> > Digital currency transactions must be confirmed on the relevant network
> block
> > before they are considered valid. Only once confirmed, will you be able
> to
> > use the coins deposited in your Coindirect wallet.
>
> https://help.coindirect.com/hc/en-us/articles/115002441974-How-quickly-ca=
n-I-use-coins-deposited-into-my-Coindirect-wallet-
>
> This is repeated here as well:
> https://help.coindirect.com/hc/en-us/articles/4409120006546--Deposits-
>
> Re: Coinify, the API docs don't give any indication of risk scoring or an=
y
> other Gap600 integration:
>
> https://merchant.coinify.com/docs/api/#payment-object
>
> --
> https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
>
--=20
________________________________
Daniel Lipshitz
GAP600
www.Gap600.com

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<div dir=3D"auto">The statistics that I have stated are based on trxs that =
rely on our tool. They are not overstated, this is a reflection of the 0con=
f market on BTC.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">They ar=
e trxs which our clients query via the API and which I clients pay subscrip=
tion for.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">There is no po=
int for clients to send us trxs they don=E2=80=99t want or need our respons=
e from. We are a B2b provider so we are not sure how and who the end users =
and applications=C2=A0are.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"aut=
o">Coinify definitely doesn=E2=80=99t send us all their traffic, as I would=
 think some of our other clients.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=
=3D"auto">Here is some external confirmation a bit old though but still-=C2=
=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div><a href=3D"https://blog.coinpayments.net/ne=
ws-features/gap600">https://blog.coinpayments.net/news-features/gap600</a><=
/div><div dir=3D"auto">You can also see our video of Coinspaid using our se=
rvice on our site - all our Marcom is a bit old.</div></div><div dir=3D"aut=
o"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">We service primarily payment processors and =
liquidity providers and not end merchants so I can=E2=80=99t say how and to=
 who end clients implement it.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"auto">If AML/KYC was enough to prevent double spends all exchanges would o=
ffer 0conf.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I don=
=E2=80=99t know the split with our clients as it=E2=80=99s non of our busin=
ess but definitely a significant amount of end users are not Kyced for the =
trxs.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Best would b=
e to try and talk to some of our major clients - ie Coinpayments, Coinspaid=
 and Coinify.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>=
<div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">O=
n Sat, 3 Dec 2022 at 14:12 Peter Todd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pete@petertodd.=
org">pete@petertodd.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-=
style:solid;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204)">On Sat, De=
c 03, 2022 at 01:01:16PM +0200, Daniel Lipshitz wrote:<br>
&gt; Shapeshift used to be clients in fact one of our first when we started=
 in<br>
&gt; 2016.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; They no longer use our service but from time to time use us for fee<br=
>
&gt; recommendations. So we actually should remove their logo as a current<=
br>
&gt; client.<br>
<br>
Yes you should. When did ShapeShift stop using your service? Did they expla=
in<br>
why?<br>
<br>
&gt; If you wish to test it out try find a merchant using Coinpayments or<b=
r>
&gt; Coinspaid.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Also some of our non custodial liquidity providers offer service no<br=
>
&gt; custodial wallets. I am not sure which.<br>
<br>
I see that you also advertise that Gap600 is &quot;Trusted by&quot; Coindir=
ect and<br>
Coinify, both AML/KYC crypto exchanges. Obviously, with full AML/KYC<br>
double-spends are not much of a concern. And it&#39;s not even clear that<b=
r>
either accepts zeroconf anyway, as I&#39;ll explain later.<br>
<br>
On this list you claimed that:<br>
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 1. As of end of Nov 2022 - GAP600 has processed i.e responded to=
 circa<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 15M transactions<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 2. These transactions have a cumulative value of 2.3B USD value.=
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 3. We currently are seeing circa 1.5M transactions queired per m=
onth.<br>
<br>
What&#39;s the value and number of transactions that *actually* rely on you=
r<br>
unconfirmed transaction tools? The only category that would apply for is go=
ods<br>
provided immediately and irrovocably, without AML/KYC. Because it sounds li=
ke<br>
these figures may be significantly overstated.<br>
<br>
<br>
Re: CoinsPaid, what you say here makes it also sound like it relies on AML/=
KYC:<br>
<br>
&gt; CoinsPaid applies a special software tool across its solutions to cond=
uct<br>
&gt; stringent KYC procedures and a risk-based approach to CDD that verify =
user<br>
&gt; identities to mitigate fraud, money laundering and other activities li=
nked to<br>
&gt; criminality and terrorism.<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.gap600.com/uncategorized/coinspaid/" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.gap600.com/uncategorized/coinspaid/</a><b=
r>
<br>
Re: Coindirect, the documentation I can find appears to say that confirmati=
ons<br>
are required before you can use coins deposited into Coindirect:<br>
<br>
&gt; Digital currency transactions must be confirmed on the relevant networ=
k block<br>
&gt; before they are considered valid. Only once confirmed, will you be abl=
e to<br>
&gt; use the coins deposited in your Coindirect wallet.<br>
<a href=3D"https://help.coindirect.com/hc/en-us/articles/115002441974-How-q=
uickly-can-I-use-coins-deposited-into-my-Coindirect-wallet-" rel=3D"norefer=
rer" target=3D"_blank">https://help.coindirect.com/hc/en-us/articles/115002=
441974-How-quickly-can-I-use-coins-deposited-into-my-Coindirect-wallet-</a>=
<br>
<br>
This is repeated here as well: <a href=3D"https://help.coindirect.com/hc/en=
-us/articles/4409120006546--Deposits-" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank"=
>https://help.coindirect.com/hc/en-us/articles/4409120006546--Deposits-</a>=
<br>
<br>
Re: Coinify, the API docs don&#39;t give any indication of risk scoring or =
any<br>
other Gap600 integration:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://merchant.coinify.com/docs/api/#payment-object" rel=3D"no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">https://merchant.coinify.com/docs/api/#payment-=
object</a><br>
<br>
-- <br>
<a href=3D"https://petertodd.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://petertodd.org</a> &#39;peter&#39;[:-1]@<a href=3D"http://petertodd.org"=
 rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">petertodd.org</a><br>
</blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" =
data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">________________________________<br>Dani=
el Lipshitz<br>GAP600<br><a href=3D"http://www.Gap600.com">www.Gap600.com</=
a><br><br><br></div>

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