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From: Bob Burnett <bob.burnett@barefootmining.com>
To: Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl>, Bitcoin Development Mailing List
	<bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate Position
Thread-Topic: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate
 Position
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Date: Wed, 21 May 2025 13:38:22 +0000
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On the =E2=80=9Clikely=E2=80=9D it is because most high growth, early-stage=
 industries go through this same change.  This is because it is extremely d=
ifficult for companies to adapt and change through periods of high growth. =
It requires constant changes and improvements in personnel, processes, mark=
eting, operations, etc.   It is extremely hard to keep pace.  A few in our =
industry probably will navigate it and survive to the 10 or 20-year mark bu=
t most will vanish.  I=E2=80=99m not wishing ill on organization =E2=80=93 =
just saying that history is not on their side.  In the PC market the leader=
s changed radically from 1985 to 1995 and then again to 2005.  IBM was numb=
er 1 in 1985, and they exited the business by 2005. Compaq was #1 in 1994, =
and they were gone by 2000.  Another example is cell phones,  2000, the lea=
ding cell phone companies were Nokia and Motorola.  Even in 2007 Nokia had =
about 50% market share, but by 2017 they were essentially dead.

On your other point regarding non-standard, I think you may have misunderst=
ood my point.  For me, the issue in the future in not about services for no=
n-standard transactions but about giving users a mechanism whereby they can=
 get assurances about future access and cost of block space.  For instance,=
 a user of block space (ex. Swan, River, Coinbase) might know that they wil=
l have a lot of demand for block space in October because they are going to=
 be doing a major marketing campaign then.  The campaign would result in a =
lot of UTXO consolidation and self-custody.  The problem for them is that s=
itting here in May they have no idea how much demand there will be for bloc=
k space and what the cost of that block space will be.  By getting the righ=
t arrangement with a miner (or coalition of miners), they will be able to g=
et guarantees of access to October block space and lock in cost for that sp=
ace.   (While this exact scenario is just an example, I can say that I am a=
lready working on some similar things.)

From: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> on behalf o=
f Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl>
Date: Wednesday, May 21, 2025 at 7:20=E2=80=AFAM
To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate=
 Position

Op 21 mei 2025, om 04:10 heeft Bob Burnett <bob.burnett@barefootmining.com>=
 het volgende geschreven:

[..]


That said, I suggest being very careful about projecting the current behavi=
or of major miners as the norm or representative of the future.  We are ext=
remely early in the development of the mining industry and there is a high =
likelihood that over the next few years that there will a dramatic change i=
n the list of major miners =E2=80=93 and there very well may be changes in =
the philosophies and priorities of these miners as well.

I don't know what your claim of "likely" is based on, but it's certainly po=
ssible. However, we have to design the protocol for the worst case behaviou=
r.

Assuming that =E2=80=9Cmajor miners=E2=80=9D was meant to mean a group that=
 largely is comprised of pubcos, none of the major players in the mining in=
dustry have been doing it for long - with most going public very recently (=
=E2=80=9922 and =E2=80=9923).

Here's a non-standard OP_RETURN mined by Eligius, not a pubco, in 2013:
https://mempool.space/nl/tx/d29c9c0e8e4d2a9790922af73f0b8d51f0bd4bb19940d9c=
f910ead8fbe85bc9b

One example is just an anecdote of course, perhaps you could present data t=
hat shows older industry players hardly mine non-standard transactions.

Finally, I don=E2=80=99t see any compelling reason for a change in OP_RETUR=
N policy or configurability.  I speak to a lot of other miners as well and =
I don=E2=80=99t know of one a single one that feels any change is beneficia=
l to them now.

It's not beneficial to large miners. They benefit from centralisation. It's=
 good for them to offer paid services that bypass standardness.

- Sjors

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">On the =E2=80=9Clik=
ely=E2=80=9D it is because most high growth, early-stage industries go thro=
ugh this same change.&nbsp; This is because it is extremely difficult for c=
ompanies to adapt and change through periods of high growth.
 It requires constant changes and improvements in personnel, processes, mar=
keting, operations, etc.&nbsp; &nbsp;It is extremely hard to keep pace.&nbs=
p; A few in our industry probably will navigate it and survive to the 10 or=
 20-year mark but most will vanish.&nbsp; I=E2=80=99m not wishing
 ill on organization =E2=80=93 just saying that history is not on their sid=
e.&nbsp; In the PC market the leaders changed radically from 1985 to 1995 a=
nd then again to 2005.&nbsp; IBM was number 1 in 1985, and they exited the =
business by 2005. Compaq was #1 in 1994, and they
 were gone by 2000.&nbsp; Another example is cell phones, &nbsp;2000, the l=
eading cell phone companies were Nokia and Motorola.&nbsp; Even in 2007 Nok=
ia had about 50% market share, but by 2017 they were essentially dead.&nbsp=
;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">On your other point=
 regarding non-standard, I think you may have misunderstood my point.&nbsp;=
 For me, the issue in the future in not about services for non-standard tra=
nsactions but about giving users a mechanism
 whereby they can get assurances about future access and cost of block spac=
e.&nbsp; For instance, a user of block space (ex. Swan, River, Coinbase) mi=
ght know that they will have a lot of demand for block space in October bec=
ause they are going to be doing a major
 marketing campaign then.&nbsp; The campaign would result in a lot of UTXO =
consolidation and self-custody.&nbsp; The problem for them is that sitting =
here in May they have no idea how much demand there will be for block space=
 and what the cost of that block space will
 be.&nbsp; By getting the right arrangement with a miner (or coalition of m=
iners), they will be able to get guarantees of access to October block spac=
e and lock in cost for that space.&nbsp;&nbsp; (While this exact scenario i=
s just an example, I can say that I am already
 working on some similar things.)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<div id=3D"mail-editor-reference-message-container">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">bitcoindev@googlegr=
oups.com &lt;bitcoindev@googlegroups.com&gt; on behalf of Sjors Provoost &l=
t;sjors@sprovoost.nl&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, May 21, 2025 at 7:20</span><span style=3D"font-size=
:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">=E2=80=AF</sp=
an><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Bitcoin Development Mailing List &lt;bitcoindev@googlegroups.com=
&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's A=
dvocate Position<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Op 21 mei 2025, om =
04:10 heeft Bob Burnett &lt;bob.burnett@barefootmining.com&gt; het volgende=
 geschreven:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">[..]<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;</span><o:p><=
/o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">That said, I sugges=
t being very careful about projecting the current behavior of major miners =
as the norm or representative of the future.&nbsp; We are extremely early i=
n the development of the mining industry
 and there is a high likelihood that over the next few years that there wil=
l a dramatic change in the list of major miners =E2=80=93 and there very we=
ll may be changes in the philosophies and priorities of these miners as wel=
l.&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">I don't know what y=
our claim of &quot;likely&quot; is based on, but it's certainly possible. H=
owever, we have to design the protocol for the worst case behaviour.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Assuming that =E2=
=80=9Cmajor miners=E2=80=9D was meant to mean a group that largely is compr=
ised of pubcos, none of the major players in the mining industry have been =
doing it for long - with most going public very recently
 (=E2=80=9922 and =E2=80=9923).&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Here's a non-standa=
rd OP_RETURN mined by Eligius, not a pubco, in 2013:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><a href=3D"https://=
mempool.space/nl/tx/d29c9c0e8e4d2a9790922af73f0b8d51f0bd4bb19940d9cf910ead8=
fbe85bc9b">https://mempool.space/nl/tx/d29c9c0e8e4d2a9790922af73f0b8d51f0bd=
4bb19940d9cf910ead8fbe85bc9b</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">One example is just=
 an anecdote of course, perhaps you could present data that shows older ind=
ustry players hardly mine non-standard transactions.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Finally, I don=E2=
=80=99t see any compelling reason for a change in OP_RETURN policy or confi=
gurability.&nbsp; I speak to a lot of other miners as well and I don=E2=80=
=99t know of one a single one that feels any change is beneficial
 to them now.&nbsp; &nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">It's not beneficial=
 to large miners. They benefit from centralisation. It's good for them to o=
ffer paid services that bypass standardness.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">- Sjors<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
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