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Diffstat (limited to '48')
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[202.12.124.155]) + by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 71dfb90a1353d-52a9933e8c9si11216e0c.3.2025.04.28.09.25.52 + for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> + (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); + Mon, 28 Apr 2025 09:25:52 -0700 (PDT) +Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 202.12.124.155 as permitted sender) client-ip=202.12.124.155; +Received: from phl-compute-02.internal (phl-compute-02.phl.internal [10.202.2.42]) + by mailfhigh.stl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B78D5254027F + for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>; Mon, 28 Apr 2025 12:25:51 -0400 (EDT) +Received: from phl-mailfrontend-01 ([10.202.2.162]) + by phl-compute-02.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 28 Apr 2025 12:25:51 -0400 +X-ME-Sender: <xms:D6wPaLhcpT5B8ut2tgcCQ2iyRAenQTT50ucuQ-ARBQlcEy-iiwNOsQ> + <xme:D6wPaIDmS49x3lA3PQ9iEOyPzFjQnpdopK0iBBmvjjdMmA4G34eMP8eIP1Pq9l9uh + dkExpj8huBONcLflw> +X-ME-Received: <xmr:D6wPaLF8yKlQVXTxG0qFmg-F2Tw3Uh8wHCnSBiy00zVs5MGBQ8B9lTpkxoYNuB5YojTn> +X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeefvddrtddtgddviedugedvucetufdoteggodetrf + dotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggv + pdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpih + gvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhephfgtgfgguffffhfvjgfkofesthhqmhdthhdt + vdenucfhrhhomhepufhjohhrshcurfhrohhvohhoshhtuceoshhjohhrshesshhprhhovh + hoohhsthdrnhhlqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpefhhffgtddtffehgfduheejfeeiteef + ieeugeeugeelhedufeeufefhhefgtdeludenucffohhmrghinhepghhnuhhshhgrrdhorh + hgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhj + ohhrshesshhprhhovhhoohhsthdrnhhlpdhnsggprhgtphhtthhopedupdhmohguvgepsh + hmthhpohhuthdprhgtphhtthhopegsihhttghoihhnuggvvhesghhoohhglhgvghhrohhu + phhsrdgtohhm +X-ME-Proxy: <xmx:D6wPaISJcyDyVsmWQxbYRlNofH-iR5AqxPL2EY3NAGKomGTz2fnaQg> + <xmx:D6wPaIzpsRiQH1Ig8Zb31maGXYyfuDfL7mxNPOFZQLIDZQv6YD4h3g> + <xmx:D6wPaO7UipERbdT43Xuzb-G53EU5nnQgXv3QHzNISteuN9y_3WO01Q> + <xmx:D6wPaNwOcNUIUKcM864-g_7utiXfksmpZ1R8GqHyPtTTkbO0wJEWjQ> + <xmx:D6wPaKoFXSDj0px-aE-YPPayghi8Ldnh3L4SBkZoDA156BCd-eHgAkY1> +Feedback-ID: ie5e042df:Fastmail +Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for + <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>; Mon, 28 Apr 2025 12:25:50 -0400 (EDT) +From: Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl> +Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.500.181.1.5\)) +Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Removing checkpoints in Bitcoin Core v30 +Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2025 18:25:39 +0200 +References: <F8E9B25A-5198-4A5E-B3D7-9DAD6B709825@sprovoost.nl> +To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> +In-Reply-To: <F8E9B25A-5198-4A5E-B3D7-9DAD6B709825@sprovoost.nl> +Message-Id: <8E4DFC2E-23D4-4D22-87C5-415A3CFC7E57@sprovoost.nl> +X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.500.181.1.5) +X-Original-Sender: sjors@sprovoost.nl +X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass + header.i=@sprovoost.nl header.s=fm1 header.b=AvyazvuU; dkim=pass + header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=BeOvQ7m5; spf=pass + (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 202.12.124.155 as + permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=sjors@sprovoost.nl; dmarc=pass (p=NONE + sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=sprovoost.nl +Precedence: list +Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com +List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com> +X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 +List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> +List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com> +List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev +List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com> +List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>, + <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe> +X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) + +Note that my original mail was written in a hurry and does not provide a fu= +ll overview of the arguments for and against checkpoints. Perhaps this thre= +ad can serve as a collection point for the various historical discussions t= +hat were had on this topic. + +In the context of BIP30 [0] Eric Voskuil brought up performance: + +> The top checkpoint is consensus for over 11 years and materially reduces= + the validation cost of 295,000 blocks. + +I don't think performance should be a consideration when removing checkpoin= +ts. + +Afaik checkpoints were not introduced as a performance feature, but rather = +as a DoS vulnerability fix. + +Even if they were, imo they shouldn't be used for performance enhancement, = +as it creates a temptation to add more - although Eric clearly says: + +> I would never advocate for adding more + +But perhaps someone else would fork Bitcoin Core (or Libbitcoin) and start = +with honest checkpoints, in order to gain adoption due its excellent perfor= +mance - especially when combined with a UTXO snapshot. And then suddenly it= + has an "upgrade". + +But even if this wasn't a concern, the performance benefit of the latest ch= +eckpoint from 2014 is just very small. That's because the early blocks don'= +t have that many signatures to check. The first 5 years of Bitcoin represen= +t only 3% of all historical transactions. + +On an M4 MacBook I did an IBD up to the last checkpoint at height 295,000. = +This took 17.5 minutes. + +I then ran it again with -assumevalid=3D0, i.e. checking all signatures, wh= +ich took 18 minutes.=20 + +These times are from connecting the first block until connecting block 295,= +000. They exclude the 1.5 minutes spent on the header pre-sync mechanism, w= +hich is required to operate safely with or without (new) checkpoints. In bo= +th cases I used -dbcache=3D3000 to avoid UTXO set disk I/O. + +The difference is 30 seconds, but let's round that up to 1 minute because m= +y setup isn't a clean lab. + +A full IBD takes at least 5 hours on this machine, so the benefit is roughl= +y 0.3% (unless we add another checkpoint). + +Loading a UTXO snapshot at the checkpoint height, without doing background = +validation of historical blocks, might get us an additional 15 minute speed= +up, which is still only 5%. + +Libbitcoin would probably find a different ratio, as might a machine with s= +evere CPU limitations, but I suspect it will be equally negliable. And with= +out new checkpoints the ratio keeps going down over time. + +Note that -assumevalid doesn't need checkpoints, it just falls back to more= + slow validation if there is a major reorg (but perhaps sub catastrophic). = +Its performance benefit for the present day blockchain should be much highe= +r than what I found here. + +That said, I've never been a fan of -assumevalid conceptually. Hopefully it= + can be replaced by something like AssumeUTXO + SwiftSync [1] for the backg= +round with full validation using block Undo data. + +- Sjors + +[0] https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/E8225EAC-BED8-4840-8E3D-81A55C365209@v= +oskuil.org/T/#mf3d290b70bae822cf31a683439ca8dbaed443e42 +[1] https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAPv7TjaM0tfbcBTRa0_713Bk6Y9jr+ShOC1KZ= +i2V3V2zooTXyg@mail.gmail.com/ + +--=20 +You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= +Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. +To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= +mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. +To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= +8E4DFC2E-23D4-4D22-87C5-415A3CFC7E57%40sprovoost.nl. + |