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authorJeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com>2015-02-21 17:47:28 -0500
committerbitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org>2015-02-21 22:47:56 +0000
commitfb300662c2960ae895015cc52a0cd502c2648e1b (patch)
tree68ae4134fdb179a969feabe21cc5731f1bf07224
parent77c3dc3a3b1c7df6c47532dcb640317c7488b3e7 (diff)
downloadpi-bitcoindev-fb300662c2960ae895015cc52a0cd502c2648e1b.tar.gz
pi-bitcoindev-fb300662c2960ae895015cc52a0cd502c2648e1b.zip
Re: [Bitcoin-development] replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4
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+From: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com>
+Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 17:47:28 -0500
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+Cc: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
+Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4
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+
+"scorched earth" refers to the _real world_ impact such policies would
+have on present-day 0-conf usage within the bitcoin community.
+
+All payment processors AFAIK process transactions through some scoring
+system, then accept 0-conf transactions for payments.
+
+This isn't some theoretical exercise. Like it or not many use
+insecure 0-conf transactions for rapid payments. Deploying something
+that makes 0-conf transactions unusable would have a wide, negative
+impact on present day bitcoin payments, thus "scorched earth"
+
+Without adequate decentralized solutions for instant payments,
+deploying replace-by-fee widely would simply push instant transactions
+even more into the realm of centralized, walled-garden services.
+
+
+
+
+
+
+On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Mark Friedenbach <mark@friedenbach.org> wr=
+ote:
+> Thank you Jorge for the contribution of the Stag Hunt terminology. It is
+> much better than a politically charged "scorched earth".
+>
+> On Feb 21, 2015 11:10 AM, "Jorge Tim=C3=B3n" <jtimon@jtimon.cc> wrote:
+>>
+>> I agree "scorched hearth" is a really bad name for the 0 conf protocol
+>> based on game theory. I would have preferred "stag hunt" since that's
+>> basically what it's using (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stag_hunt)
+>> but I like the protocol and I think it would be interesting to
+>> integrate it in the payment protocol.
+>> Even if that protocol didn't existed or didn't worked, replace-by-fee
+>> is purely part of a node's policy, not part of consensus.
+>> >From the whitepaper, 0 conf transactions being secure by the good will
+>> of miners was never an assumption, and it is clear to me that the
+>> system cannot provide those guaranties based on such a weak scheme. I
+>> believe thinking otherwise is naive.
+>> As to consider non-standard policies "an attack to bitcoin" because
+>> "that's not how bitcoin used to work", then I guess minimum relay fee
+>> policies can also be considered "an attack to bitcoin" on the same
+>> grounds.
+>> Lastly, "first-seen-wins" was just a simple policy to bootstrap the
+>> system, but I expect that most nodes will eventually move to policies
+>> that are economically rational for miners such as replace-by-fee.
+>> Not only I disagree this will be "the end of bitcoin" or "will push
+>> the price of the btc miners are mining down", I believe it will be
+>> something good for bitcoin.
+>> Since this is apparently controversial I don't want to push for
+>> replace-by-fee to become the new standard policy (something that would
+>> make sense to me). But once the policy code is sufficiently modular as
+>> to support several policies I would like bitcoin core to have a
+>> CReplaceByFeePolicy alongside CStandardPolicy and a CNullPolicy (no
+>> policy checks at all).
+>> One step at a time I guess...
+>>
+>>
+>> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 9:56 AM, Troy Benjegerdes <hozer@hozed.org> wrot=
+e:
+>> > On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 11:40:24PM +0200, Adam Gibson wrote:
+>> >>
+>> >>
+>> >> On 02/15/2015 11:25 PM, Troy Benjegerdes wrote:
+>> >> >
+>> >> > Most money/payment systems include some method to reverse or undo
+>> >> > payments made in error. In these systems, the longer settlement
+>> >> > times you mention below are a feature, not a bug, and give more
+>> >> > time for a human to react to errors and system failures.
+>> >> >
+>> >>
+>> >> Settlement has to be final somewhere. That is the whole point of it.
+>> >> Transfer costs in current electronic payment systems are a direct
+>> >> consequence of their non-finality. That's the point Satoshi was makin=
+g
+>> >> in the introduction to the whitepaper: "With the possibility of
+>> >> reversal, the need for trust spreads".
+>> >
+>> > The problem with that statement is I trust a merchant that I went into
+>> > a store and made a payment with personally more than I trust the
+>> > firmware
+>> > on my hard drive [1].
+>> >
+>> > The attack surface of devices in your computer is huge. A motivated
+>> > attacker
+>> > just needs to get an intern into a company that makes some kind of
+>> > component
+>> > or system that's in your computer, cloud server, hardware wallet, or
+>> > what
+>> > have you that has firmware capable of reading your private keys.
+>> >
+>> > With the possibility of mass trojaned hardware, if we are going to tru=
+st
+>> > the system, it must somehow allow reversal through a human-in-the-loop=
+.
+>> >
+>> >> There is nothing wrong with having reversible mechanisms built on top
+>> >> of Bitcoin, and indeed it makes sense for most activity to happen at
+>> >> those higher layers. It's easy to build things that way, but
+>> >> impossible to build them the other way: you can't build a
+>> >> non-reversible layer on top of a reversible layer.
+>> >
+>> > We built 'reliable' TCP on top of unreliable ethernet networks. My
+>> > experience
+>> > with networking was if you tried to guarantee message delivery at the
+>> > lowest
+>> > level, the system got exceedingly complicated, expensive, and brittle.
+>> >
+>> > Most applications, in particular paying someone you already trust, are
+>> > quite
+>> > happy running on reversible systems, and in some cases more reliable a=
+nd
+>> > lower risk. (carrying non-reversible cash is generally considered risk=
+y)
+>> >
+>> > The problem is that if the base currency is assumed to be
+>> > non-reversible,
+>> > then it's brittle and becomes 'too big to fail'.
+>> >
+>> > Where the blockchain improves on everything else is in transparency. I=
+f
+>> > you
+>> > reverse transactions a lot, it will be obvious from an analysis. I wou=
+ld
+>> > much
+>> > rather deal with a known, predictable, and relatively continous
+>> > transaction
+>> > reversal rate (percentage) than have to deal with sudden failures wher=
+e
+>> > some anonymous bad actor makes off with a fortune.
+>> >
+>> > We already have zero-conf double-spend transaction reversal, why not
+>> > explicitly
+>> > extend that a little in a way that senders and receivers have a choice
+>> > to
+>> > use it, or not?
+>> >
+>> >
+>> > [1]
+>> > http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/16/us-usa-cyberspying-idUSKBN0L=
+K1QV20150216
+>> >
+>> >
+>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
+--------
+>> > Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
+>> > from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboar=
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+>> > with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration &
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+EE
+>> >
+>> > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D190641631&iu=3D/4140/o=
+stg.clktrk
+>> > _______________________________________________
+>> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
+>> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
+>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
+>>
+>>
+>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------=
+------
+>> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
+>> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards
+>> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & mor=
+e
+>> Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE
+>>
+>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D190641631&iu=3D/4140/ost=
+g.clktrk
+>> _______________________________________________
+>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
+>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
+>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
+>
+>
+> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
+-----
+> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server
+> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards
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+>
+
+
+
+--=20
+Jeff Garzik
+Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
+BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/
+
+