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author | Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com> | 2015-02-21 17:47:28 -0500 |
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committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2015-02-21 22:47:56 +0000 |
commit | fb300662c2960ae895015cc52a0cd502c2648e1b (patch) | |
tree | 68ae4134fdb179a969feabe21cc5731f1bf07224 | |
parent | 77c3dc3a3b1c7df6c47532dcb640317c7488b3e7 (diff) | |
download | pi-bitcoindev-fb300662c2960ae895015cc52a0cd502c2648e1b.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-fb300662c2960ae895015cc52a0cd502c2648e1b.zip |
Re: [Bitcoin-development] replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4
-rw-r--r-- | 9a/9bdd415560b58ab71001a6a09658f07f7adf56 | 274 |
1 files changed, 274 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/9a/9bdd415560b58ab71001a6a09658f07f7adf56 b/9a/9bdd415560b58ab71001a6a09658f07f7adf56 new file mode 100644 index 000000000..ff96367ab --- /dev/null +++ b/9a/9bdd415560b58ab71001a6a09658f07f7adf56 @@ -0,0 +1,274 @@ +Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] + helo=mx.sourceforge.net) + by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) + (envelope-from <jgarzik@bitpay.com>) id 1YPIq4-0006QT-0O + for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; + Sat, 21 Feb 2015 22:47:56 +0000 +Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of bitpay.com + designates 209.85.214.181 as permitted sender) + client-ip=209.85.214.181; envelope-from=jgarzik@bitpay.com; + helo=mail-ob0-f181.google.com; +Received: from mail-ob0-f181.google.com ([209.85.214.181]) + by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) + (Exim 4.76) id 1YPIq2-00017X-Cf + for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; + Sat, 21 Feb 2015 22:47:55 +0000 +Received: by mail-ob0-f181.google.com with SMTP id vb8so30445854obc.12 + for <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>; + Sat, 21 Feb 2015 14:47:48 -0800 (PST) +X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; + d=1e100.net; s=20130820; + h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date + :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; + bh=2HtTECED+Rxytg2L4Fkjw66ICBkZbBbHG/WkbJgN0bc=; + b=fPEyUzIQzmp7J5IQa2RCEwlfjM5F1tkRm7fvbb/wObLzlO+0T9xuIqjoEymtTq1IeW + AGBh+Ltehwp+Oc4NMTnl7T31zM28svJCFTGW6MzNv2sWr+wGdwxCnzZjkxuZZhMwCY5+ + qSlLKxc46whU0y8ezkW21I+z/kG7cS80Y1bM/xncySVYqGWNsDnUj5nuyn5OCU+HAbYg + A8StiP4G/5/XoUi9iCD87aHHuaz65bilouXRQycrtbArrlVwS9LoxZdnnHUARGZo2Y+p + Wo5OHlbRXjfrmN0cJJQtXLnFQ4g/iLZGWaF1oceXWtidiY/VBtpxjebvWRy7fsrxn52w + 1f3Q== +X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk3GuuRP5vwwVM+LK/DjiFo3P4gpFNGrPObYUai6zEp0bIshb9CX70KNMzQ3RWEQhEfFP0b +X-Received: by 10.182.144.136 with SMTP id sm8mr2825897obb.63.1424558868676; + Sat, 21 Feb 2015 14:47:48 -0800 (PST) +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Received: by 10.202.219.10 with HTTP; Sat, 21 Feb 2015 14:47:28 -0800 (PST) +In-Reply-To: <CAOG=w-uJFobZtkd8OoPnOJC3uqCOwjsqyfNWJTg3j3sJQn+wXQ@mail.gmail.com> +References: <20150212064719.GA6563@savin.petertodd.org> + <CANEZrP2uVT_UqJbzyQcEbiS78T68Jj2cH7OGXv5QtYiCwArDdA@mail.gmail.com> + <CAJHLa0PkzG44JpuQoHVLUU8SR55LaJf5AwG=a7AjK2u7TAveOQ@mail.gmail.com> + <20150215212512.GR14804@nl.grid.coop> <54E11248.6090401@gmail.com> + <20150219085604.GT14804@nl.grid.coop> + <CABm2gDorEFNzzHH2bxpo6miv1H0RUhL9uAYX6gg2aW0wB1QDbw@mail.gmail.com> + <CAOG=w-uJFobZtkd8OoPnOJC3uqCOwjsqyfNWJTg3j3sJQn+wXQ@mail.gmail.com> +From: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com> +Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 17:47:28 -0500 +Message-ID: <CAJHLa0M4Tc7kiQVNmBfMBvSqFyrmHXdaNh7mF+crAdME5FUWHg@mail.gmail.com> +To: Mark Friedenbach <mark@friedenbach.org>, + =?UTF-8?B?Sm9yZ2UgVGltw7Nu?= <jtimon@blockstream.io> +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) +X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. + See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. + -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for + sender-domain + -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record + -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from + author's domain + 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, + not necessarily valid + -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature +X-Headers-End: 1YPIq2-00017X-Cf +Cc: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> +Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4 +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 +Precedence: list +List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, + <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, + <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2015 22:47:56 -0000 + +"scorched earth" refers to the _real world_ impact such policies would +have on present-day 0-conf usage within the bitcoin community. + +All payment processors AFAIK process transactions through some scoring +system, then accept 0-conf transactions for payments. + +This isn't some theoretical exercise. Like it or not many use +insecure 0-conf transactions for rapid payments. Deploying something +that makes 0-conf transactions unusable would have a wide, negative +impact on present day bitcoin payments, thus "scorched earth" + +Without adequate decentralized solutions for instant payments, +deploying replace-by-fee widely would simply push instant transactions +even more into the realm of centralized, walled-garden services. + + + + + + +On Sat, Feb 21, 2015 at 3:30 PM, Mark Friedenbach <mark@friedenbach.org> wr= +ote: +> Thank you Jorge for the contribution of the Stag Hunt terminology. It is +> much better than a politically charged "scorched earth". +> +> On Feb 21, 2015 11:10 AM, "Jorge Tim=C3=B3n" <jtimon@jtimon.cc> wrote: +>> +>> I agree "scorched hearth" is a really bad name for the 0 conf protocol +>> based on game theory. I would have preferred "stag hunt" since that's +>> basically what it's using (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stag_hunt) +>> but I like the protocol and I think it would be interesting to +>> integrate it in the payment protocol. +>> Even if that protocol didn't existed or didn't worked, replace-by-fee +>> is purely part of a node's policy, not part of consensus. +>> >From the whitepaper, 0 conf transactions being secure by the good will +>> of miners was never an assumption, and it is clear to me that the +>> system cannot provide those guaranties based on such a weak scheme. I +>> believe thinking otherwise is naive. +>> As to consider non-standard policies "an attack to bitcoin" because +>> "that's not how bitcoin used to work", then I guess minimum relay fee +>> policies can also be considered "an attack to bitcoin" on the same +>> grounds. +>> Lastly, "first-seen-wins" was just a simple policy to bootstrap the +>> system, but I expect that most nodes will eventually move to policies +>> that are economically rational for miners such as replace-by-fee. +>> Not only I disagree this will be "the end of bitcoin" or "will push +>> the price of the btc miners are mining down", I believe it will be +>> something good for bitcoin. +>> Since this is apparently controversial I don't want to push for +>> replace-by-fee to become the new standard policy (something that would +>> make sense to me). But once the policy code is sufficiently modular as +>> to support several policies I would like bitcoin core to have a +>> CReplaceByFeePolicy alongside CStandardPolicy and a CNullPolicy (no +>> policy checks at all). +>> One step at a time I guess... +>> +>> +>> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 9:56 AM, Troy Benjegerdes <hozer@hozed.org> wrot= +e: +>> > On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 11:40:24PM +0200, Adam Gibson wrote: +>> >> +>> >> +>> >> On 02/15/2015 11:25 PM, Troy Benjegerdes wrote: +>> >> > +>> >> > Most money/payment systems include some method to reverse or undo +>> >> > payments made in error. In these systems, the longer settlement +>> >> > times you mention below are a feature, not a bug, and give more +>> >> > time for a human to react to errors and system failures. +>> >> > +>> >> +>> >> Settlement has to be final somewhere. That is the whole point of it. +>> >> Transfer costs in current electronic payment systems are a direct +>> >> consequence of their non-finality. That's the point Satoshi was makin= +g +>> >> in the introduction to the whitepaper: "With the possibility of +>> >> reversal, the need for trust spreads". +>> > +>> > The problem with that statement is I trust a merchant that I went into +>> > a store and made a payment with personally more than I trust the +>> > firmware +>> > on my hard drive [1]. +>> > +>> > The attack surface of devices in your computer is huge. A motivated +>> > attacker +>> > just needs to get an intern into a company that makes some kind of +>> > component +>> > or system that's in your computer, cloud server, hardware wallet, or +>> > what +>> > have you that has firmware capable of reading your private keys. +>> > +>> > With the possibility of mass trojaned hardware, if we are going to tru= +st +>> > the system, it must somehow allow reversal through a human-in-the-loop= +. +>> > +>> >> There is nothing wrong with having reversible mechanisms built on top +>> >> of Bitcoin, and indeed it makes sense for most activity to happen at +>> >> those higher layers. It's easy to build things that way, but +>> >> impossible to build them the other way: you can't build a +>> >> non-reversible layer on top of a reversible layer. +>> > +>> > We built 'reliable' TCP on top of unreliable ethernet networks. My +>> > experience +>> > with networking was if you tried to guarantee message delivery at the +>> > lowest +>> > level, the system got exceedingly complicated, expensive, and brittle. +>> > +>> > Most applications, in particular paying someone you already trust, are +>> > quite +>> > happy running on reversible systems, and in some cases more reliable a= +nd +>> > lower risk. (carrying non-reversible cash is generally considered risk= +y) +>> > +>> > The problem is that if the base currency is assumed to be +>> > non-reversible, +>> > then it's brittle and becomes 'too big to fail'. +>> > +>> > Where the blockchain improves on everything else is in transparency. I= +f +>> > you +>> > reverse transactions a lot, it will be obvious from an analysis. I wou= +ld +>> > much +>> > rather deal with a known, predictable, and relatively continous +>> > transaction +>> > reversal rate (percentage) than have to deal with sudden failures wher= +e +>> > some anonymous bad actor makes off with a fortune. +>> > +>> > We already have zero-conf double-spend transaction reversal, why not +>> > explicitly +>> > extend that a little in a way that senders and receivers have a choice +>> > to +>> > use it, or not? +>> > +>> > +>> > [1] +>> > http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/16/us-usa-cyberspying-idUSKBN0L= +K1QV20150216 +>> > +>> > +>> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------= +-------- +>> > Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server +>> > from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboar= +ds +>> > with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & +>> > more +>> > Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FR= +EE +>> > +>> > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D190641631&iu=3D/4140/o= +stg.clktrk +>> > _______________________________________________ +>> > Bitcoin-development mailing list +>> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development +>> +>> +>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------= +------ +>> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server +>> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards +>> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & mor= +e +>> Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE +>> +>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D190641631&iu=3D/4140/ost= +g.clktrk +>> _______________________________________________ +>> Bitcoin-development mailing list +>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development +> +> +> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= +----- +> Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server +> from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards +> with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more +> Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE +> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=3D190641631&iu=3D/4140/ostg= +.clktrk +> _______________________________________________ +> Bitcoin-development mailing list +> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development +> + + + +--=20 +Jeff Garzik +Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist +BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ + + |