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+Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 16:50:16 +0200 (CEST)

+From: Prayank <prayank@tutanota.de>

+To: Michael Folkson <michaelfolkson@gmail.com>

+Message-ID: <MjZmMzE--3-2@tutanota.de>

+In-Reply-To: <CAFvNmHRt2L+D1jkVJmUsiZ8Fpeqqioygk+eZkP7+8r2p3Dx6_Q@mail.gmail.com>

+References: <MjZEVeZ--3-2@tutanota.de>

+ <CAFvNmHRt2L+D1jkVJmUsiZ8Fpeqqioygk+eZkP7+8r2p3Dx6_Q@mail.gmail.com>

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+X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 14 Sep 2021 14:57:13 +0000

+Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>

+Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP process meeting - Tuesday September 14th

+ 23:00 UTC on #bitcoin-dev Libera IRC

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+

+------=_Part_677481_1569232663.1631631016567

+Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

+Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

+

+> A mailing list post is static and a BIP will go normally go through multi=

+ple edits and revisions so you do need to take advantage of the Git version=

+ control system. It gets quite unwieldy to attempt to do that via a mailing=

+ list with every minor suggested edit getting sent to all subscribers.

+

+ Mailing list post will have the link to BIP documentation. Post itself doe=

+sn't need to be updated but same link can be used to share updated informat=

+ion. Example: https://gist.github.com/prayank23/95b4804777fefd015d7cc4f8476=

+75d7f=C2=A0(Image can be changed in gist when required or add new informati=

+on)

+Mailing list post will help in reading discussions related to proposal.

+

+>Also allowing the entire global population

+(billions of people) to be able to create a directory doesn't sound

+like a good idea to me :)

+

+There is nothing to allow/disallow. That's the whole point. People are free=

+ to save links and organize things which can be called a BIP directory.

+

+> I can only speak for myself here but I am not particularly concerned abou=

+t this perception of authority.=20

+

+This perception affects Bitcoin.=20

+

+> In the same way as there are limits on the ability of Core maintainers to=

+ unilaterally merge in contentious code changes there are similar limits on=

+ the ability of BIP editors. Ultimately anyone merging a PR has to consider=

+ process/consensus and concerns can (and have been in the past) be raised o=

+n this mailing list or elsewhere.

+

+Bitcoin Core is an implementation (used by most of the nodes right now). BI=

+Ps are proposals for Bitcoin. Using same organization on GitHub and such co=

+mparisons can be misleading for many. I don't think we need ACKs/NACKs in B=

+IPs repository and I feel weird to be a part of discussions, ACKing this pu=

+ll request:=C2=A0https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1104. Not sure any Bi=

+tcoin project needs a pull request merged in this repository to implement a=

+ proposal.

+

+>=C2=A0I'm not sure where you are suggesting a bot should be.

+

+A bot similar to DrahtBot in Bitcoin Core repository.=C2=A0

+Few other developers had suggested similar thing earlier:

+

+https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018859.h=

+tml

+

+https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018868.h=

+tml

+

+https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018869.h=

+tml

+

+https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018871.h=

+tml

+

+--=20

+Prayank

+

+A3B1 E430 2298 178F

+

+

+

+Sep 14, 2021, 19:37 by michaelfolkson@gmail.com:

+

+> Hey Prayank

+>

+> Thanks for the suggestions.

+>

+>> bitcoin-dev mailing list link can be considered a BIP and saved in a BIP=

+ directory. Anyone can create such directories. So BIP is nothing but a pro=

+posal shared on bitcoin-dev mailing list.

+>>

+>

+> A mailing list post is static and a BIP will go normally go through

+> multiple edits and revisions so you do need to take advantage of the

+> Git version control system. It gets quite unwieldy to attempt to do

+> that via a mailing list with every minor suggested edit getting sent

+> to all subscribers. Also allowing the entire global population

+> (billions of people) to be able to create a directory doesn't sound

+> like a good idea to me :)

+>

+>> This will avoid the 'bitcoin/bips' repository being considered as some B=

+IP authority that approves BIPs and proposals can improve Bitcoin without u=

+sing the repository. Repository will only be helpful in documenting BIP cor=

+rectly.

+>>

+>

+> I can only speak for myself here but I am not particularly concerned

+> about this perception of authority. We need a central repo that we can

+> all refer to (rather than BIPs being distributed across a large number

+> of repos) and that central repo needs to managed and maintained by

+> somebody (in this case the two BIP editors Kalle and Luke). In the

+> same way as there are limits on the ability of Core maintainers to

+> unilaterally merge in contentious code changes there are similar

+> limits on the ability of BIP editors. Ultimately anyone merging a PR

+> has to consider process/consensus and concerns can (and have been in

+> the past) be raised on this mailing list or elsewhere.

+>

+>> 2. Bot in `bitcoin/bips` repository that notifies about pull requests ba=

+sed on different things. This will help maintainer(s) and contributors.

+>>

+>

+> I'm not sure where you are suggesting a bot should be. On IRC? There

+> is a BIP merges bot on Mastodon[0] that I'm aware of and obviously you

+> can subscribe to GitHub repo notification emails.

+>

+>> 3. BIP Gallery: I tried sharing things in a different way so that newbie=

+s can understand importance of BIPs in Bitcoin and relate to it: https://pr=

+ayank23.github.io/BIPsGallery/ however couldn't complete it with all the BI=

+Ps because not many people considered it helpful. There were few suggestion=

+s to improve it by adding some text for each BIP and better image gallery. =

+Maybe someone else can create a better project.

+>>

+>

+> This looks cool. I think we can definitely do better in encouraging

+> more people to engage with the BIP process especially as the ideas

+> start flowing in post Taproot activation brainstorming what should be

+> in the "next soft fork" (trademark!). Some of the BIPs (e.g. the

+> Taproot BIPs 340-342) are quite technically dense so someone on IRC

+> suggested making greater use of informational BIPs to supplement the

+> standard BIPs for new implementers or even casual readers.

+>

+> [0] https://x0f.org/@bipmerges

+>

+> On Tue, Sep 14, 2021 at 1:17 PM Prayank <prayank@tutanota.de> wrote:

+>

+>>

+>> Hi Michael,

+>>

+>> Thanks for sharing the details about the meeting.

+>>

+>> Wishlist has some interesting points. I would like to suggest few things=

+:

+>>

+>> 1.BIP process:

+>>

+>> A. Plan and document a proposal

+>>

+>> B. Open PR in https://github.com/bitcoin/bips and edit everything proper=

+ly

+>>

+>> C. BIP is assigned a number and merged

+>>

+>> D. Share the proposal on bitcoin dev mailing list

+>>

+>> bitcoin-dev mailing list link can be considered a BIP and saved in a BIP=

+ directory. Anyone can create such directories. So BIP is nothing but a pro=

+posal shared on bitcoin-dev mailing list.

+>>

+>> Who implements the BIP? When is it implemented? How is it implemented? O=

+pinions on proposal etc. will be different for each BIP. This will avoid th=

+e 'bitcoin/bips' repository being considered as some BIP authority that app=

+roves BIPs and proposals can improve Bitcoin without using the repository. =

+Repository will only be helpful in documenting BIP correctly.

+>>

+>> 2. Bot in `bitcoin/bips` repository that notifies about pull requests ba=

+sed on different things. This will help maintainer(s) and contributors.

+>>

+>> 3. BIP Gallery: I tried sharing things in a different way so that newbie=

+s can understand importance of BIPs in Bitcoin and relate to it: https://pr=

+ayank23.github.io/BIPsGallery/ however couldn't complete it with all the BI=

+Ps because not many people considered it helpful. There were few suggestion=

+s to improve it by adding some text for each BIP and better image gallery. =

+Maybe someone else can create a better project.

+>>

+>>

+>> --

+>> Prayank

+>>

+>> A3B1 E430 2298 178F

+>>

+>

+>

+>

+> --=20

+> Michael Folkson

+> Email: michaelfolkson@gmail.com

+> Keybase: michaelfolkson

+> PGP: 43ED C999 9F85 1D40 EAF4 9835 92D6 0159 214C FEE3

+>

+

+

+------=_Part_677481_1569232663.1631631016567

+Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8

+Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

+

+<html>

+ <head>

+ <meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DUTF-8=

+">

+ </head>

+ <body>

+<div>&gt; A mailing list post is static and a BIP will go normally go throu=

+gh multiple edits and revisions so you do need to take advantage of the Git=

+ version control system. It gets quite unwieldy to attempt to do that via a=

+ mailing list with every minor suggested edit getting sent to all subscribe=

+rs.<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto"> Mailing list po=

+st will have the link to BIP documentation. Post itself doesn't need to be =

+updated but same link can be used to share updated information. Example: ht=

+tps://gist.github.com/prayank23/95b4804777fefd015d7cc4f847675d7f&nbsp;(Imag=

+e can be changed in gist when required or add new information)</div><div di=

+r=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Mailing list post will help in readi=

+ng discussions related to proposal.<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><d=

+iv dir=3D"auto">&gt;Also allowing the entire global population<br></div><di=

+v dir=3D"auto">(billions of people) to be able to create a directory doesn'=

+t sound<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">like a good idea to me :)<br></div><div =

+dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">There is nothing to allow/disallow=

+. That's the whole point. People are free to save links and organize things=

+ which can be called a BIP directory.<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>=

+<div dir=3D"auto">&gt; I can only speak for myself here but I am not partic=

+ularly concerned about this perception of authority. <br></div><div dir=3D"=

+auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">This perception affects Bitcoin. <br></di=

+v><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">&gt; In the same way as the=

+re are limits on the ability of Core maintainers to unilaterally merge in c=

+ontentious code changes there are similar limits on the ability of BIP edit=

+ors. Ultimately anyone merging a PR has to consider process/consensus and c=

+oncerns can (and have been in the past) be raised on this mailing list or e=

+lsewhere.<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Bitcoin Co=

+re is an implementation (used by most of the nodes right now). BIPs are pro=

+posals for Bitcoin. Using same organization on GitHub and such comparisons =

+can be misleading for many. I don't think we need ACKs/NACKs in BIPs reposi=

+tory and I feel weird to be a part of discussions, ACKing this pull request=

+:&nbsp;https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/pull/1104. Not sure any Bitcoin proj=

+ect needs a pull request merged in this repository to implement a proposal.=

+<br></div><div><div><br></div><div>&gt;&nbsp;I'm not sure where you are sug=

+gesting a bot should be.<br><br>A bot similar to DrahtBot in Bitcoin Core r=

+epository.&nbsp;</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Few oth=

+er developers had suggested similar thing earlier:<br></div><div dir=3D"aut=

+o"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/=

+bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018859.html<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><di=

+v dir=3D"auto">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021=

+-April/018868.html<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">h=

+ttps://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018869.ht=

+ml<br></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">https://lists.lin=

+uxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-April/018871.html<br></div><div=

+ dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div>-- <br></div></div><div>Prayank<br></div><div>=

+<br></div><div dir=3D"auto">A3B1 E430 2298 178F<br></div><div><br></div><di=

+v><br></div><div><br></div><div>Sep 14, 2021, 19:37 by michaelfolkson@gmail=

+.com:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"tutanota_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1=

+px solid #93A3B8; padding-left: 10px; margin-left: 5px;"><div>Hey Prayank<b=

+r></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for the suggestions.<br></div><blockquot=

+e>bitcoin-dev mailing list link can be considered a BIP and saved in a BIP =

+directory. Anyone can create such directories. So BIP is nothing but a prop=

+osal shared on bitcoin-dev mailing list.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><di=

+v>A mailing list post is static and a BIP will go normally go through<br></=

+div><div>multiple edits and revisions so you do need to take advantage of t=

+he<br></div><div>Git version control system. It gets quite unwieldy to atte=

+mpt to do<br></div><div>that via a mailing list with every minor suggested =

+edit getting sent<br></div><div>to all subscribers. Also allowing the entir=

+e global population<br></div><div>(billions of people) to be able to create=

+ a directory doesn't sound<br></div><div>like a good idea to me :)<br></div=

+><blockquote>This will avoid the 'bitcoin/bips' repository being considered=

+ as some BIP authority that approves BIPs and proposals can improve Bitcoin=

+ without using the repository. Repository will only be helpful in documenti=

+ng BIP correctly.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I can only speak for =

+myself here but I am not particularly concerned<br></div><div>about this pe=

+rception of authority. We need a central repo that we can<br></div><div>all=

+ refer to (rather than BIPs being distributed across a large number<br></di=

+v><div>of repos) and that central repo needs to managed and maintained by<b=

+r></div><div>somebody (in this case the two BIP editors Kalle and Luke). In=

+ the<br></div><div>same way as there are limits on the ability of Core main=

+tainers to<br></div><div>unilaterally merge in contentious code changes the=

+re are similar<br></div><div>limits on the ability of BIP editors. Ultimate=

+ly anyone merging a PR<br></div><div>has to consider process/consensus and =

+concerns can (and have been in<br></div><div>the past) be raised on this ma=

+iling list or elsewhere.<br></div><blockquote>2. Bot in `bitcoin/bips` repo=

+sitory that notifies about pull requests based on different things. This wi=

+ll help maintainer(s) and contributors.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div=

+>I'm not sure where you are suggesting a bot should be. On IRC? There<br></=

+div><div>is a BIP merges bot on Mastodon[0] that I'm aware of and obviously=

+ you<br></div><div>can subscribe to GitHub repo notification emails.<br></d=

+iv><blockquote>3. BIP Gallery: I tried sharing things in a different way so=

+ that newbies can understand importance of BIPs in Bitcoin and relate to it=

+: https://prayank23.github.io/BIPsGallery/ however couldn't complete it wit=

+h all the BIPs because not many people considered it helpful. There were fe=

+w suggestions to improve it by adding some text for each BIP and better ima=

+ge gallery. Maybe someone else can create a better project.<br></blockquote=

+><div><br></div><div>This looks cool. I think we can definitely do better i=

+n encouraging<br></div><div>more people to engage with the BIP process espe=

+cially as the ideas<br></div><div>start flowing in post Taproot activation =

+brainstorming what should be<br></div><div>in the "next soft fork" (tradema=

+rk!). Some of the BIPs (e.g. the<br></div><div>Taproot BIPs 340-342) are qu=

+ite technically dense so someone on IRC<br></div><div>suggested making grea=

+ter use of informational BIPs to supplement the<br></div><div>standard BIPs=

+ for new implementers or even casual readers.<br></div><div><br></div><div>=

+[0] https://x0f.org/@bipmerges<br></div><div><br></div><div>On Tue, Sep 14,=

+ 2021 at 1:17 PM Prayank &lt;prayank@tutanota.de&gt; wrote:<br></div><block=

+quote><div><br></div><div>Hi Michael,<br></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks f=

+or sharing the details about the meeting.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Wish=

+list has some interesting points. I would like to suggest few things:<br></=

+div><div><br></div><div>1.BIP process:<br></div><div><br></div><div>A. Plan=

+ and document a proposal<br></div><div><br></div><div>B. Open PR in https:/=

+/github.com/bitcoin/bips and edit everything properly<br></div><div><br></d=

+iv><div>C. BIP is assigned a number and merged<br></div><div><br></div><div=

+>D. Share the proposal on bitcoin dev mailing list<br></div><div><br></div>=

+<div>bitcoin-dev mailing list link can be considered a BIP and saved in a B=

+IP directory. Anyone can create such directories. So BIP is nothing but a p=

+roposal shared on bitcoin-dev mailing list.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Wh=

+o implements the BIP? When is it implemented? How is it implemented? Opinio=

+ns on proposal etc. will be different for each BIP. This will avoid the 'bi=

+tcoin/bips' repository being considered as some BIP authority that approves=

+ BIPs and proposals can improve Bitcoin without using the repository. Repos=

+itory will only be helpful in documenting BIP correctly.<br></div><div><br>=

+</div><div>2. Bot in `bitcoin/bips` repository that notifies about pull req=

+uests based on different things. This will help maintainer(s) and contribut=

+ors.<br></div><div><br></div><div>3. BIP Gallery: I tried sharing things in=

+ a different way so that newbies can understand importance of BIPs in Bitco=

+in and relate to it: https://prayank23.github.io/BIPsGallery/ however could=

+n't complete it with all the BIPs because not many people considered it hel=

+pful. There were few suggestions to improve it by adding some text for each=

+ BIP and better image gallery. Maybe someone else can create a better proje=

+ct.<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>--<br></div><div>Prayank<br=

+></div><div><br></div><div>A3B1 E430 2298 178F<br></div></blockquote><div><=

+br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>-- <br></div><div>Michael Folks=

+on<br></div><div>Email: michaelfolkson@gmail.com<br></div><div>Keybase: mic=

+haelfolkson<br></div><div>PGP: 43ED C999 9F85 1D40 EAF4 9835 92D6 0159 214C=

+ FEE3<br></div></blockquote><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div> </body>

+</html>

+

+------=_Part_677481_1569232663.1631631016567--

+