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+Date: Wed, 19 Feb 2025 17:56:07 +0000

+To: Hunter Beast <hunter@surmount.systems>

+From: Pieter Wuille <bitcoin-dev@wuille.net>

+Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>

+Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Proposal for Quantum-Resistant Address Migration

+ Protocol (QRAMP) BIP

+Message-ID: <pXZj0cBHqBVPjkNPKBjiNE1BjPHhvRp-MwPaBsQu-s6RTEL9oBJearqZE33A2yz31LNRNUpZstq_q8YMN1VsCY2vByc9w4QyTOmIRCE3BFM=@wuille.net>

+In-Reply-To: <f9e233e0-9d87-4e71-9a9f-3310ea242194n@googlegroups.com>

+References: <08a544fa-a29b-45c2-8303-8c5bde8598e7n@googlegroups.com> <CAC3UE4+kme2N6D_Xx8+VaH1BJnkVEfntPmnLQzaqTQfK4D5QhQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAJDmzYxJzFs=myecyMS6iJwSni1sDwUVq3kMnNGg=dK5kULRJg@mail.gmail.com> <CAC3UE4K=T8BmOeLW9s=x+TBauK+M5Z3MaSicD42+rOj_jZ2Ugw@mail.gmail.com> <CAJDmzYzUAzoCj3da-3M_ast0_+Qxf3_J1OXWf88B2D-R70pPrg@mail.gmail.com> <f9e233e0-9d87-4e71-9a9f-3310ea242194n@googlegroups.com>

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+

+--b1=_rGgU8UJFu29CXiY85dEMM1FnXVhPj3nPYsbe9La7M

+Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

+Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

+

+On Wednesday, February 19th, 2025 at 11:06 AM, Hunter Beast <hunter@surmoun=

+t.systems> wrote:

+

+> I don't see why old coins should be confiscated. The better option is to =

+let those with quantum computers free up old coins. While this might have a=

+n inflationary impact on bitcoin's price, to use a turn of phrase, the infl=

+ation is transitory. Those with low time preference should support returnin=

+g lost coins to circulation.

+

+Of course they have to be confiscated. If and when (and that's a big if) th=

+e existence of a cryptography-breaking QC becomes a credible threat, the Bi=

+tcoin ecosystem has no other option than softforking(*) out the ability to =

+spend from signature schemes (including ECDSA and BIP340) that are vulnerab=

+le to QCs. The alternative is that millions of BTC become vulnerable to the=

+ft; I cannot see how the currency can maintain any value at all in such a s=

+etting. And this affects everyone; even those which diligently moved their =

+coins to PQC-protected schemes.

+

+> Also, I don't see the urgency, considering the majority of coins are in e=

+ither P2PKH, P2WPKH, P2SH, and P2WSH addresses. If PQC signatures aren't ad=

+ded, such as with BIP-360, there will be some concern around long exposure =

+attacks on P2TR coins.

+

+There were literally millions of BTC locked in outputs whose public keys ar=

+e already known to the public, long before P2TR. Either because of they're =

+in P2PK outputs, because they're in hashed addresses which have been reused=

+ and already using for spending, or because they're been spent in forked ch=

+ains. There are likely substantially more BTC in outputs whose public keys =

+are known to multiple parties (multisig, lightning channels, escrow service=

+s, ...) but not to the entire world.

+

+I certainly agree there is no urgency right now, but if (and only if) crypt=

+ography-breaking QCs become a reality, the ecosystem has no choice but disa=

+bling(*) the spending of coins through schemes that become broken, and need=

+s to have done so before such a machine exists.

+

+(*) There may exist ways of retaining the ability to spend coins in vulnera=

+ble schemes, if they involve a PQC proof of knowledge of some additional se=

+cret, e.g. the xprv the key was derived with. It's a significant complicati=

+on, not and applicable to everything, but might be an option.

+

+--

+Pieter

+

+--=20

+You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=

+Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.

+To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=

+mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

+To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/=

+pXZj0cBHqBVPjkNPKBjiNE1BjPHhvRp-MwPaBsQu-s6RTEL9oBJearqZE33A2yz31LNRNUpZstq=

+_q8YMN1VsCY2vByc9w4QyTOmIRCE3BFM%3D%40wuille.net.

+

+--b1=_rGgU8UJFu29CXiY85dEMM1FnXVhPj3nPYsbe9La7M

+Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"

+Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

+

+<div class=3D"protonmail_signature_block protonmail_signature_block-empty" =

+style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">

+ <div class=3D"protonmail_signature_block-user protonmail_signature_bloc=

+k-empty">

+ =20

+ </div>

+ =20

+ <div class=3D"protonmail_signature_block-proton protonmail_sign=

+ature_block-empty">

+ =20

+ </div>

+</div>

+<div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br></div><=

+div class=3D"protonmail_quote">

+ On Wednesday, February 19th, 2025 at 11:06 AM, Hunter Beast &lt;hun=

+ter@surmount.systems&gt; wrote:<br>

+ <blockquote class=3D"protonmail_quote" type=3D"cite"><div>

+ I don't see why old coins should be confiscated. The better opt=

+ion is to let those with quantum computers free up old coins. While this mi=

+ght have an inflationary impact on bitcoin's price, to use a turn of phrase=

+, the inflation is transitory. Those with low time preference should suppor=

+t returning lost coins to circulation.</div></blockquote><div style=3D"font=

+-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); backgroun=

+d-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, s=

+ans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255,=

+ 255, 255);">Of course they have to be confiscated. If and when (and that's=

+ a big if) the existence of a cryptography-breaking QC becomes a credible t=

+hreat, the Bitcoin ecosystem has no other option than softforking(*) out th=

+e ability to spend from signature schemes (including ECDSA and BIP340) that=

+ are vulnerable to QCs. The alternative is that millions of BTC become vuln=

+erable to theft; I cannot see how the currency can maintain any value at al=

+l in such a setting. And this affects everyone; even those which diligently=

+ moved their coins to PQC-protected schemes.</div><div style=3D"font-family=

+: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color=

+: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-ser=

+if; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 2=

+55);"><br></div><blockquote class=3D"protonmail_quote" type=3D"cite"><div>A=

+lso, I don't see the urgency, considering the majority of coins are in eith=

+er P2PKH, P2WPKH, P2SH, and P2WSH addresses. If PQC signatures aren't added=

+, such as with BIP-360, there will be some concern around long exposure att=

+acks on P2TR coins.</div></blockquote><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, san=

+s-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 2=

+55, 255);"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-siz=

+e: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">There =

+were literally millions of BTC locked in outputs whose public keys are alre=

+ady known to the public, long before P2TR. Either because of they're in P2P=

+K outputs, because they're in hashed addresses which have been reused and a=

+lready using for spending, or because they're been spent in forked chains. =

+There are likely substantially more BTC in outputs whose public keys are kn=

+own to multiple parties (multisig, lightning channels, escrow services, ...=

+) but not to the entire world.</div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-=

+serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255=

+, 255);"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size:=

+ 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">I certai=

+nly agree there is no urgency right now, but if (and only if) cryptography-=

+breaking QCs become a reality, the ecosystem has no choice but disabling(*)=

+ the spending of coins through schemes that become broken, and needs to hav=

+e done so before such a machine exists.</div><div style=3D"font-family: Ari=

+al, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb=

+(255, 255, 255);"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; f=

+ont-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"=

+>(*) There may exist ways of retaining the ability to spend coins in vulner=

+able schemes, if they involve a PQC proof of knowledge of some additional s=

+ecret, e.g. the xprv the key was derived with. It's a significant complicat=

+ion, not and applicable to everything, but might be an option.</div><div st=

+yle=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0)=

+; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></div><div style=3D"font-famil=

+y: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-colo=

+r: rgb(255, 255, 255);">--&nbsp;<br></div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial,=

+ sans-serif; font-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(25=

+5, 255, 255);">Pieter</div><div style=3D"font-family: Arial, sans-serif; fo=

+nt-size: 14px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">=

+<br></div></div>

+

+<p></p>

+

+-- <br />

+You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=

+quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List&quot; group.<br />

+To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=

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