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| author | Karl <gmkarl@gmail.com> | 2021-05-08 10:33:31 -0400 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2021-05-08 14:33:48 +0000 |
| commit | c0b7dba0509c90275edccd0bde0e9ba0d97a9580 (patch) | |
| tree | aa67f6c521857d2ad0535d053a353366d31c9ff2 | |
| parent | 22ccc036c831535224247d0fe7076f14533667ce (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-c0b7dba0509c90275edccd0bde0e9ba0d97a9580.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-c0b7dba0509c90275edccd0bde0e9ba0d97a9580.zip | |
Re: [bitcoin-dev] Opinion on proof of stake in future
| -rw-r--r-- | 45/15738ca46558dfb2be04bed78fb52de6cc13ed | 208 |
1 files changed, 208 insertions, 0 deletions
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boundary="0000000000007eb61805c1d26e80" +X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 08 May 2021 14:36:13 +0000 +Cc: SatoshiSingh <SatoshiSingh@protonmail.com> +Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Opinion on proof of stake in future +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 May 2021 14:33:48 -0000 + +--0000000000007eb61805c1d26e80 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" + +Bitcoin would get better mainstream public reputation if the block reward +were reduced to reduce mining. This would quickly and easily reduce energy +expenditure. + +A system would be needed to do that with consensus, to make it political. +For example, making a norm of extending the block reward termination +farther into the future, spreading the remaining coins out more thinly, but +never doing the opposite. + +PoS can be made to work but it's hard to do so amid such disagreement. It +is so hard to express one's relevant information concisely and effectively. + +I recommended earlier finding or hiring an experienced facilitator who +could make sure all concerns around the chain are included by engaging all +the dialog more productively. Somebody would need to be available to do +the work of finding such a person and any compensation they might need. + +On Fri, May 7, 2021, 7:05 PM Eric Voskuil via bitcoin-dev < +bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: + +> https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Proof-of-Stake-Fallacy +> + +This wiki states things as impossible but does not at all demonstrate them +to be so. + +The assumption that something is impossible always relies on many other +assumptions, and the reader may have different ones from the author. + +Quote from Proof-of-Stake-Fallacy +> In Other Means Principle it is shown that censorship resistance depends +on people paying miners to overpower the censor. +> Overcoming censorship is not possible in a PoS system, as the censor has +acquired majority stake and cannot be unseated. + +If the link in that text is followed you get, + +Quote from Other Means Principle: +> Given that mining is necessarily anonymous, there is no way for the +economy to prevent state participation in mining. + +The article then goes on to assume this, but "no way" is a circular link +back to Proof-of-Stake-Fallacy! + +Never is it demonstrated that a censor will always be able to have majority +stake. In a PoS system, they would have to be able to form false chain +histories to do that. In a PoW system, they would have to outcompete the +work. + +These are not inherent limitations. The whole world is open. Consider a +proof of work algorithm that requires the freeing of prisoners: a state a +very different state if it does this. Or a communication protocol that +already cannot be intercepted. These things are exotically hard, but not +impossible, and show that the logic of the articles is not valid. + +Another random idea: incentivising out-of-band channels, for example. +Mining blocks based on finding and uniting illegitimate forks. Now a chain +functions by defeating its own censorship. + +--0000000000007eb61805c1d26e80 +Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Bitcoin would get better mainstream public reputatio= +n if the block reward were reduced to reduce mining.=C2=A0 This would quick= +ly and easily reduce energy expenditure.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><= +div dir=3D"auto">A system would be needed to do that with consensus, to mak= +e it political.=C2=A0 For example, making a norm of extending the block rew= +ard termination farther into the future, spreading the remaining coins out = +more thinly, but never doing the opposite.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div= +><div dir=3D"auto">PoS can be made to work but it's hard to do so amid = +such disagreement.=C2=A0 It is so hard to express one's relevant inform= +ation concisely and effectively.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir= +=3D"auto">I recommended earlier finding or hiring an experienced facilitato= +r who could make sure all concerns around the chain are included by engagin= +g all the dialog more productively.=C2=A0 Somebody would need to be availab= +le to do the work of finding such a person and any compensation they might = +need.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto"><d= +iv dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, May 7, 2021, 7:05 PM Eric Vosku= +il via bitcoin-dev <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.= +org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation= +.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar= +gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"aut= +o"><div dir=3D"ltr"><a href=3D"https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-sys= +tem/wiki/Proof-of-Stake-Fallacy" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_b= +lank">https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Proof-of-Stake-F= +allacy</a></div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>= +<div dir=3D"auto">This wiki states things as impossible but does not at all= + demonstrate them to be so.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"au= +to">The assumption that something is impossible always relies on many other= + assumptions, and the reader may have different ones from the author.</div>= +<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Quote from Proof-of-Stake-Fal= +lacy</div><div dir=3D"auto">> In Other Means Principle it is shown that = +censorship resistance depends on people paying miners to overpower the cens= +or.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto">> Overcoming censorship is not possible= + in a PoS system, as the censor has acquired majority stake and cannot be u= +nseated.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">If the link in = +that text is followed you get,</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D= +"auto">Quote from Other Means Principle:</div><div dir=3D"auto">> Given = +that mining is necessarily anonymous, there is no way for the economy to pr= +event state participation in mining.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div = +dir=3D"auto">The article then goes on to assume this, but "no way"= +; is a circular link back to Proof-of-Stake-Fallacy!</div><div dir=3D"auto"= +><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Never is it demonstrated that a censor will al= +ways be able to have majority stake.=C2=A0 In a PoS system, they would have= + to be able to form false chain histories to do that.=C2=A0 In a PoW system= +, they would have to outcompete the work.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>= +<div dir=3D"auto">These are not inherent limitations.=C2=A0 The whole world= + is open.=C2=A0 Consider a proof of work algorithm that requires the freein= +g of prisoners: a state a very different state if it does this.=C2=A0 Or a = +communication protocol that already cannot be intercepted.=C2=A0 These thin= +gs are exotically hard, but not impossible, and show that the logic of the = +articles is not valid.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">A= +nother random idea: incentivising out-of-band channels, for example.=C2=A0 = +Mining blocks based on finding and uniting illegitimate forks.=C2=A0 Now a = +chain functions by defeating its own censorship.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br= +></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div></div> + +--0000000000007eb61805c1d26e80-- + |