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| author | Jared Lee Richardson <jaredr26@gmail.com> | 2017-03-30 14:52:01 -0700 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2017-03-30 21:52:03 +0000 |
| commit | bf67a7da21f7dfd71e9cafd926149cba0522d7d0 (patch) | |
| tree | fe02c3a93dace667da2afc216fe14297d9a59802 | |
| parent | 857ecd8f6a718d71fbd0a6e27c4371a516080556 (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-bf67a7da21f7dfd71e9cafd926149cba0522d7d0.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-bf67a7da21f7dfd71e9cafd926149cba0522d7d0.zip | |
Re: [bitcoin-dev] High fees / centralization
| -rw-r--r-- | 42/f4866097a1860945d0b33aac24b5ddbfe1abea | 219 |
1 files changed, 219 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/42/f4866097a1860945d0b33aac24b5ddbfe1abea b/42/f4866097a1860945d0b33aac24b5ddbfe1abea new file mode 100644 index 000000000..1923cc440 --- /dev/null +++ b/42/f4866097a1860945d0b33aac24b5ddbfe1abea @@ -0,0 +1,219 @@ +Return-Path: <jaredr26@gmail.com> +Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org + [172.17.192.35]) + by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFE8EB4A + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:52:03 +0000 (UTC) +X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 +Received: from mail-vk0-f48.google.com (mail-vk0-f48.google.com + [209.85.213.48]) + by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D923D108 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:52:02 +0000 (UTC) +Received: by mail-vk0-f48.google.com with SMTP id d188so70714669vka.0 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:52:02 -0700 (PDT) +DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; + h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to; + bh=WvDkYtV39rxDk/JfVsQ/2JLlnjaa7yVN4xm4ilQeOXM=; + b=RUG3xuL3nvi7yP6PIEFetrlpK/DPKR6V7R2S/nnLeQzCMU5VNosjNh7TwrFqrPRmdC + HhKLVQtKJb0sA4u/dIAwYMPdH+/mGTgL9ps6rGsN6SrfKnDLGAv1jyvm94/NEgfQDG9a + lIqTnhUFplzAA06MxXl+2K0nFwsIG2kT19ZFKm1fYH3GLjtrBLqHDZuQWFjG8oZrcuVM + 2qgIKGWYwkozjJKUsxPsWk3wvHVSvzg8IknoRxzjeWo9aeNHB1/Q+xm7Q9rglkZpfFLq + M08DJ4UguZtFTEfIcpm0J55MBTq783MWstNTMM2satmmrCgT5gtR/qq/oJwh7lWau2QF + 34ww== +X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; + d=1e100.net; s=20161025; + h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date + :message-id:subject:to; + bh=WvDkYtV39rxDk/JfVsQ/2JLlnjaa7yVN4xm4ilQeOXM=; + b=DAs6vlgurGulnV7tBcbYlGiqMjIoKDepzgF7BG9k+Pr+QiZmSt4a7D0Rl4s4JfW+AX + U9ihJVB+ROupf8yWYdzjy2MtBxxyxj21OgD3YQImtFZUuOACDjkPhh5V3s1wo63O+wvK + iOTgN2YpMtTOAIIxyysvsCOuKpI7FGbMSM7nxn4AK9UGKHAkcZMNNGsHdd0hqgTU46z7 + mOUooM+n85wX5sZN44jP8eOHtY5ndWPwcKIu4kAlPFeZiFImyiGOrwdU9G6ImQxmADhP + wEliqlkQEZt9hIiC38WaGPiUIkroT8r2pb3oEknbyCNW9LeMbkSjzRo2ql01JVnkWnJA + olbA== +X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2zhTQbJ5B1IOJvmHGeI1aV3hb/1f4baboXTmymsMlKFTpL9LFlQlWtspsIYvEHMyV7ULClW5KHt+q4eQ== +X-Received: by 10.31.175.74 with SMTP id y71mr1022081vke.34.1490910721974; + Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:52:01 -0700 (PDT) +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Received: by 10.31.157.143 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:52:01 -0700 (PDT) +In-Reply-To: <CAFVRnyq07qNappzwEmB_e+xCKPyCzHcWbnTDWCdeWjrsMMioLQ@mail.gmail.com> +References: <CALJP9GB2Fds8m9JpaVv0NxGDr579BtR9RMs7-KNSLkK8Mz7LoA@mail.gmail.com> + <CALJP9GAOgpSAhrrYFPRbGKZXwqZn_oDUmv6B7wcvwxcZufDd0g@mail.gmail.com> + <CALJP9GDkdxsvOZHJxzx+0pvjWBAkAswZCWXcp=zL7LNMRNfCOg@mail.gmail.com> + <CALJP9GBk4gG0H+tEJmEiz=0+LAQoe6_sL1Fv-BCJSfmvfY8PRA@mail.gmail.com> + <CALJP9GDH1xQ-cYc1SN6jejXDA49eiy_OR49XLLWd+=VdNo7ekA@mail.gmail.com> + <CAFVRnyq07qNappzwEmB_e+xCKPyCzHcWbnTDWCdeWjrsMMioLQ@mail.gmail.com> +From: Jared Lee Richardson <jaredr26@gmail.com> +Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:52:01 -0700 +Message-ID: <CAD1TkXsfb7VC7stXV33me1PDem750adpyETg-finKyjnV=Syxg@mail.gmail.com> +To: David Vorick <david.vorick@gmail.com>, + Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114410fcf9ac20054bf9b3ce +X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, + DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT,FREEMAIL_FROM, + HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, + RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM autolearn=no version=3.3.1 +X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on + smtp1.linux-foundation.org +X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 22:03:55 +0000 +Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] High fees / centralization +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:52:04 -0000 + +--001a114410fcf9ac20054bf9b3ce +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 + +> Further, we are very far from the point (in my appraisal) where fees are +high enough to block home users from using the network. + +This depends entirely on the usecase entirely. Most likely even without a +blocksize increase, home purchases will be large enough to fit on the +blocksize in the forseeable future. Microtransactions(<$0.25) on the other +hand aren't viable no matter what we try to do - There's just too much data. + +Most likely, transaction fees above $1 per tx will become unappealing for +many consumers, and above $10 is likely to be niche-level. It is hard to +say with any certainty, but average credit card fees give us some +indications to work with - $1.2 on a $30 transaction, though paid by the +business and not the consumer. + +Without blocksize increases, fees higher than $1/tx are basically +inevitable, most likely before 2020. Running a node only costs $10/month +if that. If we were going to favor node operational costs that highly in +the weighting, we'd better have a pretty solid justification with +mathematical models or examples. + +> We should not throw away the core innovation of monetary sovereignty in +pursuit of supporting 0.1% of the world's daily transactions. + +If we can easily have both, why not have both? + +An altcoin with both will take Bitcoin's monetary sovereignty crown by +default. No crown, no usecases, no Bitcoin. + + + +On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 9:14 AM, David Vorick via bitcoin-dev < +bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: + +> On Mar 30, 2017 12:04 PM, "Tom Harding via bitcoin-dev" < +> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: +> +> Raystonn, +> +> Your logic is very hard to dispute. An important special case is small +> miners. +> +> Small miners use pools exactly because they want smaller, more frequent +> payments. +> +> Rising fees force them to take payments less frequently, and will only +> tend to make more of them give up. +> +> With fees rising superlinearly, this centralizing effect is much stronger +> than the oft-cited worry of small miners joining large pools to decrease +> orphan rates. +> +> +> Miners get paid on average once every ten minutes. The size of fees and +> the number of fee transactions does not change the payout rate. +> +> Further, we are very far from the point (in my appraisal) where fees are +> high enough to block home users from using the network. +> +> Bitcoin has many high-value use cases such as savings. We should not throw +> away the core innovation of monetary sovereignty in pursuit of supporting +> 0.1% of the world's daily transactions. +> +> +> _______________________________________________ +> bitcoin-dev mailing list +> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev +> +> + +--001a114410fcf9ac20054bf9b3ce +Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +<div dir=3D"ltr">>=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Further, we are= + very far from the point (in my appraisal) where fees are high enough to bl= +ock home users from using the network.</span><div><br>This depends entirely= + on the usecase entirely.=C2=A0 Most likely even without a blocksize increa= +se, home purchases will be large enough to fit on the blocksize in the fors= +eeable future.=C2=A0 Microtransactions(<$0.25) on the other hand aren= +9;t viable no matter what we try to do - There's just too much data.</d= +iv><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Most lik= +ely, transaction fees above $1 per tx will become unappealing for many cons= +umers, and above $10 is likely to be niche-level.=C2=A0 It is hard to say w= +ith any certainty, but average credit card fees give us some indications to= + work with - $1.2 on a $30 transaction, though paid by the business and not= + the consumer.<br><br>Without blocksize increases, fees higher than $1/tx a= +re basically inevitable, most likely before 2020.=C2=A0 Running a node only= + costs $10/month if that.=C2=A0 If we were going to favor node operational = +costs that highly in the weighting, we'd better have a pretty solid jus= +tification with mathematical models or examples.</div><div class=3D"gmail_e= +xtra"><br>>=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">We should not throw aw= +ay the core innovation of monetary sovereignty in pursuit of supporting 0.1= +% of the world's daily transactions.<br></span><br>If we can easily hav= +e both, why not have both?<br><br>An altcoin with both will take Bitcoin= +9;s monetary sovereignty crown by default.=C2=A0 No crown, no usecases, no = +Bitcoin.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extr= +a"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 9:14 AM, Davi= +d Vorick via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-de= +v@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfound= +ation.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= +=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding= +-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><span class=3D"gmail-"><div>On Mar 30, 2017 12= +:04 PM, "Tom Harding via bitcoin-dev" <<a href=3D"mailto:bitco= +in-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr>= +linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"= +gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail-m_-4494335373548696587quote" style= +=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding= +-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div style=3D"font-family:sans-serif" dir=3D"a= +uto">Raystonn,=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:sans-serif" dir=3D"auto= +"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:sans-serif" dir=3D"auto">Your logic i= +s very hard to dispute. An important special case is small miners.</div><di= +v style=3D"font-family:sans-serif" dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div style=3D"fon= +t-family:sans-serif" dir=3D"auto">Small miners use pools exactly because th= +ey want smaller, more frequent payments.</div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"fo= +nt-family:sans-serif"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-family:sans= +-serif">Rising fees force them to take payments less frequently, and will o= +nly tend to make more of them give up.</div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font= +-family:sans-serif"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-family:sans-s= +erif">With fees rising superlinearly, this centralizing effect is much stro= +nger than the oft-cited worry of small miners joining large pools to decrea= +se orphan rates.</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir=3D"auto= +"><br></div></span><div dir=3D"auto">Miners get paid on average once every = +ten minutes. The size of fees and the number of fee transactions does not c= +hange the payout rate.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">F= +urther, we are very far from the point (in my appraisal) where fees are hig= +h enough to block home users from using the network.</div><div dir=3D"auto"= +><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Bitcoin has many high-value use cases such as = +savings. We should not throw away the core innovation of monetary sovereign= +ty in pursuit of supporting 0.1% of the world's daily transactions.</di= +v><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div></div></div> +<br>______________________________<wbr>_________________<br> +bitcoin-dev mailing list<br> +<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.= +<wbr>linuxfoundation.org</a><br> +<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" = +rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr>org= +/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr>dev</a><br> +<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div> + +--001a114410fcf9ac20054bf9b3ce-- + |