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| author | Joachim Strömbergson <joachimstr@protonmail.com> | 2020-01-13 17:34:17 +0000 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2020-01-13 17:34:25 +0000 |
| commit | aba0034e04b483f04c9b7a198aaf0603aecb30e2 (patch) | |
| tree | 178518d5c8f738c0adfe568444b71f1c5fcaf018 | |
| parent | c763fcaceccc3fac3c4e09dedc9ccc69251a6bb3 (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-aba0034e04b483f04c9b7a198aaf0603aecb30e2.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-aba0034e04b483f04c9b7a198aaf0603aecb30e2.zip | |
Re: [bitcoin-dev] Coins: A trustless sidechain protocol
| -rw-r--r-- | 2f/898d10e25378470fc7f9a642c4c423da805ab7 | 182 |
1 files changed, 182 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/2f/898d10e25378470fc7f9a642c4c423da805ab7 b/2f/898d10e25378470fc7f9a642c4c423da805ab7 new file mode 100644 index 000000000..25d3ba5b4 --- /dev/null +++ b/2f/898d10e25378470fc7f9a642c4c423da805ab7 @@ -0,0 +1,182 @@ +Return-Path: <joachimstr@protonmail.com> +Received: from whitealder.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [140.211.166.138]) + by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8425C077D + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:34:25 +0000 (UTC) +Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) + by whitealder.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F28783DA4 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:34:25 +0000 (UTC) +X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org +Received: from whitealder.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) + by localhost (.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) + with ESMTP id lYzXhGRNxzSo + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:34:23 +0000 (UTC) +X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 +Received: from mail-40135.protonmail.ch (mail-40135.protonmail.ch + [185.70.40.135]) + by whitealder.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFD38815EA + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:34:22 +0000 (UTC) +Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:34:17 +0000 +DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; + s=default; t=1578936860; + bh=DMcDEIqm3ndHgFIKrVF6KNOtl8CaYU4FkFAR/TNwVh4=; + h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References: + Feedback-ID:From; + b=wdjejkfduoGVPg559KnHIWoD646D/e5of5Dd3Kn5fc4sv/Wq77iUhcc9FyUPuXxbR + uw9g7HLfsSNXPCLx0M4UJW+fnqmD03Y1rCEmqaA1UI+zD96ruHh1B1eXe4a/JjI4DX + o03RAtRWGnrZvzzsZCVroykOx1ca2feGvfCa1PLA= +To: ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com>, + Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +From: =?UTF-8?Q?Joachim_Str=C3=B6mbergson?= <joachimstr@protonmail.com> +Reply-To: =?UTF-8?Q?Joachim_Str=C3=B6mbergson?= <joachimstr@protonmail.com> +Message-ID: <-8y3dnfO2vpyLPeOF5scfp0c5AZd9FF-_xkr1jL2iT1j02fSMJHix2YQupuOeBRF9v5icwGQbriKFXqd5B1AusZp0X7ENOvQ_q4OGCazueU=@protonmail.com> +In-Reply-To: <P-QnOpNsFdehy_F3FJgAr0lSJ2xtmT5cwRsEC8VfnIUrSgfNDkLNizm2L1TG65AhKM430tzJ9p33WBnSmJ92ZTKEoaKXCTQzVKrZkH9vtn4=@protonmail.com> +References: <kAPCabG_c_AiGFYny48dO7ZT-MUgINLLoiKdzElSN8IrRej9szT3t9s0FvAHihraSo0CftPwFjU_pxvKuu9SziIJFt2JZxO3rdpS3-CMKzg=@protonmail.com> + <Qa9HJ5p2bYnXsjvgcTz-J_stEwJ80SU9UTZF5abv96i5eM_6y3pmy9Bu4tEnFXOc_lBs-y2BFoMh4xOGjl2US56hAFPvxDZM2eyhJkEdBLM=@protonmail.com> + <2mw_wd_ocLESpSG9ST3yJBsJriHf1l5LsdQ2jLamTUUKTMmwUpcjEeohClnMHJl4qjXNW9mHQJiK65jmDHfLG3-nVSRse9PdXnXokGZ2_ac=@protonmail.com> + <P-QnOpNsFdehy_F3FJgAr0lSJ2xtmT5cwRsEC8VfnIUrSgfNDkLNizm2L1TG65AhKM430tzJ9p33WBnSmJ92ZTKEoaKXCTQzVKrZkH9vtn4=@protonmail.com> +Feedback-ID: rtGq1wInl4cYyZOA2iZwaHP-4FBFY67Qt3DcVBMZh8YR1tV-3hijnv7SxpdDwGlNdSPgHEykKLn6PcHDKa0D8A==:Ext:ProtonMail +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:40:51 +0000 +Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Coins: A trustless sidechain protocol +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:34:25 -0000 + +> Instead of using sidechains, just use channel factories. + +I am not familiar enough with the latest advancements in this field. Is it = +possible using LN/channel factories to achieve off-line-like participation = +user experience without previous registration with any kind of gateway prov= +ider? For example, can you go online, join the network [somehow instantly],= + generate address/invoice and then put it somewhere for others to later use= + it when you are off-line? Can you also participate while being off-line fo= +r very long periods of time without relying on third party providers to sec= +ure your channels? If not, is using sidechains really equally replaceable w= +ith LN/CF constructions? + + + + + + + + +Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email. + +=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 Original Me= +ssage =E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90=E2=80=90 +On Monday, January 13, 2020 2:33 AM, ZmnSCPxj via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@= +lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: + +> Good morning Robin, +> +> > Good morning ZmnSCPxj, +> > Thank you for your detailed feedback! Two topics: +> > Lightning vs Sidechains +> > +> > Why an either-or-solution, if we can connect sidechains via the LN to g= +et the best of both worlds? +> > The LN works exceptionally great under the following conditions: +> > +> > - you're always online +> > +> > - you have BTC to manage your channels' inbound-capacity +> > +> > - you can afford BTC transactions +> > - in your channel is much more than the minimum on-chain TX fees +> > The next Billion users do not fit that category. They are on un= +reliable cell phone connections and do not have any BTC yet. +> > And the more popular Bitcoin becomes, the fewer people can affo= +rd LN channels. Even Eltoo requires your funds to be significantly higher t= +han Bitcoin's TX fees, right? +> > Already today, more and more services like tippin.me, BlueWalle= +t, etc, provide custodial solutions. +> > For small amounts, custody is an acceptable workaround. And I l= +ove their usability. Install it and immediately I can send you $0.01. Yet, = +scaling their approach globally does not lead to desirable outcomes, since = +we'd be back to trusting banks with their Excel sheets. +> > So let's make their internal ledgers public and trustless, via = +independent sidechains. Decentralized Blockchains do scale decently up to a= + couple Million UTXOs. So a couple thousand Sidechains is probably sufficie= +nt for a global medium of exchange. Cross-chain communication without requi= +ring cross-chain validation is possible via atomic swaps and through Bitcoi= +n's LN. That scales because it separates chain-validators from swap-validat= +ors. +> > Bitcoin's LN acts as the central settlement layer for efficient= + cross-chain transactions between all sidechains. +> > So Endusers "living" in sidechains instead of directly in the L= +N has many advantages: +> > +> > - no bitcoin blockspace required for on-boarding new users +> > +> > - no need to lock funds to provide inbound-capacity +> > +> > - no need to stay online or pay watch towers +> > +> > - no need to store channel histories +> > +> > - account balances can be much smaller than BTC TX fees +> > Those are the exact same reasons why BlueWallet built their LndHub.= + But sidechains can be trustless. Also a generic protocol provides flexibil= +ity for sidechain innovations with arbitrary digital assets and consensus r= +ules. +> > +> +> Which is why I brought up multiparticipant offchain updateable cryptocurr= +ency systems. +> The "channel factories" concepts does what you are looking for, except wi= +th better trust-minimization than sidechains can achieve. +> Just replace "sidechain" with either Decker-Wattenhofer or Decker-Russell= +-Osuntokun constructions. +> You can even use the Somsen "statechain" mechanism, which rides a Decker-= +Wattenhofer/Decker-Russell-Osuntokun construction, though its trust-minimiz= +ation is only very very slightly better than federated sidechains. +> +> It is helpful to remember that Poon-Dryja, Decker-Wattenhofer, Decker-Rus= +sell-Osuntokun, and all other future such constructions, can host any contr= +act that its lower layer can support. +> So if you ride a Poon-Dryja on top of the Bitcoin blockchain, you can hos= +t HTLCs inside the Poon-Dryja, since the Bitcoin blockchain can host HTLCs. +> Similarly, if you ride a Decker-Wattenhofer on top of the Bitcoin blockch= +ain, you can host a Poon-Dryja inside the Decker-Wattenhofer, since the Bit= +coin blockchain can host Poon-Dryja channels. +> This central insight leads one to conclude that anything you can put onch= +ain, you an generally also put offchain, so why use a chain at all except a= +s an ultimate anchor to reality? +> Poon-Dryja is strictly two-participant, while Decker-Wattenhofer limits t= +he practical number of updates due to its use of decrementing relative time= +locks: so you put the payment layer in a bunch of Poon-Dryja channels which= + support tons of updates each but only two participants per channel, and cr= +eate a layer that supports changes to the channel topology (where changes t= +o the channel connectivity are expected to be much rarer than payments) and= + is multiparticipant so you can actually scale. +> +> Instead of using sidechains, just use channel factories. +> You do not need to broadcast the entire internal ledgers of those service= +s, only their customers need to know those internal ledgers, and sign off o= +n the updates of those ledgers. +> +> Regards, +> ZmnSCPxj +> +> bitcoin-dev mailing list +> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev + + + |