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| author | Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com> | 2015-06-27 14:02:05 -0400 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2015-06-27 18:02:08 +0000 |
| commit | a6eef0059228b065a5cf390c2daab3fd37e8e112 (patch) | |
| tree | f91245d35cf07bea51b692a3465423a0b3cef294 | |
| parent | 094615bfe0f405cfc427ae67959fbad270972e90 (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-a6eef0059228b065a5cf390c2daab3fd37e8e112.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-a6eef0059228b065a5cf390c2daab3fd37e8e112.zip | |
Re: [bitcoin-dev] A Proposed Compromise to the Block Size Limit
| -rw-r--r-- | ea/a38c08b470d521bdc5c7ca088540f107abb84f | 193 |
1 files changed, 193 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/ea/a38c08b470d521bdc5c7ca088540f107abb84f b/ea/a38c08b470d521bdc5c7ca088540f107abb84f new file mode 100644 index 000000000..56eb72bea --- /dev/null +++ b/ea/a38c08b470d521bdc5c7ca088540f107abb84f @@ -0,0 +1,193 @@ +Return-Path: <jameson.lopp@gmail.com> +Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org + [172.17.192.35]) + by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 199B2BC7 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Sat, 27 Jun 2015 18:02:08 +0000 (UTC) +X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 +Received: from mail-wi0-f174.google.com (mail-wi0-f174.google.com + [209.85.212.174]) + by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CEF6279 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Sat, 27 Jun 2015 18:02:07 +0000 (UTC) +Received: by wiga1 with SMTP id a1so40650094wig.0 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Sat, 27 Jun 2015 11:02:05 -0700 (PDT) +DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; + h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to + :cc:content-type; + bh=Pbhq31jIyepJw+dNyvFXTdIdBZnk16yZivKdN32Gt80=; + b=C1dhEbnQ7xO/HV2MW/DrJliKsKwPikdLkUHwyaoZ4eN2a9Fy3QwfHYO5BovgQuoe+p + vFy4Yno7Ve2shL25eXIwbEomQsJ9aHdLzULhUx67Kk1iZIUZfm74+rxcpuJOIhbJqh0n + QXQ0CmIHvgE7GCTm0A3ULRWaP9ojN8hjUSyhSt4c3KcsAUHGn1Dx2nN4aMxauta0eMTP + n7y/IlBcTimOSvDOaZN2sNB6iS4jpXYY6Xe833qJapNZDGFlviO0AYQiMbdzNNMQ09FK + 6n7d3FtW3ImgW+f+k9ktPnLHbZy9gvPFP3sauGc4ag8fDYuycQZsA6/Z+lAv8Vpz6amQ + NohA== +MIME-Version: 1.0 +X-Received: by 10.180.84.170 with SMTP id a10mr7744765wiz.52.1435428125887; + Sat, 27 Jun 2015 11:02:05 -0700 (PDT) +Received: by 10.27.171.143 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Jun 2015 11:02:05 -0700 (PDT) +In-Reply-To: <20150627173451.GA28181@muck> +References: <CALgxB7udA85BWetBGc-RN=72ZtVPK9Q5HW8YRDKA08M38XqJqQ@mail.gmail.com> + <CALqxMTHjszPcf=S20kquF=5y3zfYb+foP6tL1okOT2jhdrW08A@mail.gmail.com> + <CALgxB7tdFsQXzGRje=suC7Yaym_Whhtn2qrb3ykx2ZOBwwbE7w@mail.gmail.com> + <20150627163731.GA12820@muck> + <CALgxB7tsmHGiGuCmcdNuwjKxNfBpdq6U+x8eK=7sL6NekAfXow@mail.gmail.com> + <20150627173451.GA28181@muck> +Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2015 14:02:05 -0400 +Message-ID: <CADL_X_ekJ_agt+94z-9_cQGdTOQym5t+6X+G4+AxvNBRpYBnTg@mail.gmail.com> +From: Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com> +To: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org> +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d041827e68b53b6051983a74d +X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, + DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW + autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 +X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on + smtp1.linux-foundation.org +Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] A Proposed Compromise to the Block Size Limit +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2015 18:02:08 -0000 + +--f46d041827e68b53b6051983a74d +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 + +On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org> wrote: + +> On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 01:25:14PM -0400, Michael Naber wrote: +> > Global network consensus means that there is global network recognition +> > that a particular transaction has occurred and is irreversible. The +> > off-chain solutions you describe, while probably useful for other +> purposes, +> > do not exhibit this characteristic and so they are not global network +> > consensus networks. +> +> Hub-and-spoke payment channels and the Lightning network are not +> off-chain solutions, they are ways to more efficiently use on-chain +> transactions to achive the goal of moving assets from point a to point +> b, resulting in more economic transactions being done with fewer - but +> not zero! - blockchain transactions. +> +> Off-chain transaction systems such as Changetip allow economic +> transactions to happen with no blockchain transactions at all. +> +> > Bitcoin Core scales as O(N), where N is the number of transactions. Can +> we +> > do better than this while still achieving global consensus? +> +> No, Bitcoin the network scales with O(n^2) with your above criteria, as +> each node creates k transactions, thus each node has to verify k*n +> transactions, resulting in O(n^2) total work. +> +> For Bitcoin to have O(n) scaling you have to assume that the number of +> validation nodes doesn't scale with the number of users, thus resulting +> in a system where users trust others to do validation for them. That is +> not a global consensus system; that's a trust-based system. +> +> +Why does it matter what the "total work" of the network is? Anyone who is +participating as a node on the network only cares about the resources +required to run their own node, not the resources everyone else needs to +run their nodes. + +Also, no assumption needed, it is quite clear that the number of nodes is +not scaling along with the number of users. If anything it appears to be +inversely proportional. + + +> There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but why change Bitcoin +> itself into a trust-based system, when you can preserve the global +> consensus functionality, and built a trust-based system on top of it? +> +> -- +> 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org +> 0000000000000000007fc13ce02072d9cb2a6d51fae41fefcde7b3b283803d24 +> +> _______________________________________________ +> bitcoin-dev mailing list +> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev +> +> + +--f46d041827e68b53b6051983a74d +Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo= +te">On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Peter Todd <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a hr= +ef=3D"mailto:pete@petertodd.org" target=3D"_blank">pete@petertodd.org</a>&g= +t;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0= + .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">On Sat,= + Jun 27, 2015 at 01:25:14PM -0400, Michael Naber wrote:<br> +> Global network consensus means that there is global network recognitio= +n<br> +> that a particular transaction has occurred and is irreversible. The<br= +> +> off-chain solutions you describe, while probably useful for other purp= +oses,<br> +> do not exhibit this characteristic and so they are not global network<= +br> +> consensus networks.<br> +<br> +</span>Hub-and-spoke payment channels and the Lightning network are not<br> +off-chain solutions, they are ways to more efficiently use on-chain<br> +transactions to achive the goal of moving assets from point a to point<br> +b, resulting in more economic transactions being done with fewer - but<br> +not zero! - blockchain transactions.<br> +<br> +Off-chain transaction systems such as Changetip allow economic<br> +transactions to happen with no blockchain transactions at all.<br> +<span class=3D""><br> +> Bitcoin Core scales as O(N), where N is the number of transactions. Ca= +n we<br> +> do better than this while still achieving global consensus?<br> +<br> +</span>No, Bitcoin the network scales with O(n^2) with your above criteria,= + as<br> +each node creates k transactions, thus each node has to verify k*n<br> +transactions, resulting in O(n^2) total work.<br> +<br> +For Bitcoin to have O(n) scaling you have to assume that the number of<br> +validation nodes doesn't scale with the number of users, thus resulting= +<br> +in a system where users trust others to do validation for them. That is<br> +not a global consensus system; that's a trust-based system.<br> +<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Why does it matter what the "tota= +l work" of the network is? Anyone who is participating as a node on th= +e network only cares about the resources required to run their own node, no= +t the resources everyone else needs to run their nodes.<br><br></div><div>A= +lso, no assumption needed, it is quite clear that the number of nodes is no= +t scaling along with the number of users. If anything it appears to be inve= +rsely proportional.<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu= +ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex= +"> +There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but why change Bitcoin<br> +itself into a trust-based system, when you can preserve the global<br> +consensus functionality, and built a trust-based system on top of it?<br> +<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br> +--<br> +'peter'[:-1]@<a href=3D"http://petertodd.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta= +rget=3D"_blank">petertodd.org</a><br> +0000000000000000007fc13ce02072d9cb2a6d51fae41fefcde7b3b283803d24<br> +</div></div><br>_______________________________________________<br> +bitcoin-dev mailing list<br> +<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.= +linuxfoundation.org</a><br> +<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" = +rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mail= +man/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br> +<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div> + +--f46d041827e68b53b6051983a74d-- + |