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+Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 12:19:23 -0400

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+To: Alan Reiner <etotheipi@gmail.com>

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+Cc: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net

+Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account

+X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net

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+

+--001a11c2c104f9dd9304f77bbeb2

+Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

+

+The term bit is really only overloaded for those who are techy. 95% of the

+population never uses the term bit in their daily lives and I doubt most

+could even name one use of the term.

+Plus bit used to be a unit of money way back when, so this is kind of

+reclaiming it. I think it's a great fit.

+On Apr 20, 2014 11:52 AM, "Alan Reiner" <etotheipi@gmail.com> wrote:

+

+> I've been a staunch supporter of "microbitcoin" and would like to do

+> anything I can to make sure that we jump directly to it if we're going to

+> promote changing the default units. And I'm happy to integrate it into

+> Armory as a default (with appropriate explanations and settings/options).

+> I'm not so convinced about the "bits" name though -- I do like it, but I do

+> also think that word is too overloaded. Though, I think we could get away

+> with it.

+>

+> (Sadly, I still use "microbes" occasionally (as in *microb*itcoin) when

+> I'm talking to coworkers, because it slips off the tongue and is actually a

+> good combination of brevity and self-explanatory -- it just doesn't instill

+> the right visuals...)

+>

+> We started integrating alternative units into Armory. But, of course,

+> there were a few more loose ends than I expected, which will require some

+> work. We want to put it in but not necessarily change the default right

+> away. I'd *prefer* we get some commitments from some other wallet

+> developers, so we can make a unified push for it. I'm happy to lead that

+> and make it default as long as I'm not the only one in the world doing it.

+>

+> -Alan

+>

+>

+>

+> On 04/20/2014 11:05 AM, Tamas Blummer wrote:

+>

+> Here is an earlier reference to bits:

+>

+>

+> https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html<https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html>

+>

+> I forgot that Alan Reiner was also supporting a unit equals to bits :

+>

+>

+> https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html<https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html>

+>

+> and here the earlier going back to March 2013 and a poll at that time

+> pushing for XBT being 1 bit

+>

+>

+> https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html<https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html>

+>

+> Regards,

+>

+> Tamas Blummer

+> http://bitsofproof.com

+>

+> On 20.04.2014, at 16:53, Pieter Wuille <pieter.wuille@gmail.com> wrote:

+>

+> I told him specifically to bring it here (on a pull request for

+> Bitcoin Core), as there is no point in making such convention changes

+> to just one client.

+>

+> I wasn't aware of any discussion about the "bits" proposal here before.

+>

+> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof.com>

+> wrote:

+>

+> People on this list are mostly engineers who have no problem dealing with

+> magnitudes and have rather limited empathy for people who have a problem

+> with them.

+> They also tend to think, that because they invented money 2.0 they would

+> not

+> need to care of finance's or people's current customs.

+>

+> The importance of their decisions in these questions will fade as people

+> already use wallets other than the core.

+>

+> Bring this particular discussion elsewhere, to the wallet developer.

+>

+> BTW the topic was discussed here several times, you have my support and

+> Jeff

+> Garzik's.

+>

+> Regards,

+>

+> Tamas Blummer

+> http://bitsofproof.com

+>

+> On 20.04.2014, at 15:15, Rob Golding <rob.golding@astutium.com><rob.golding@astutium.com>wrote:

+>

+> The average person is not going to be confident that the prefix they

+> are using is the correct one,

+>

+>

+> The use of any 'prefix' is one of choice and entirely unnecessary, and

+> there

+> are already established 'divisions' in u/mBTC for those that feel they need

+> to use such things.

+>

+> people WILL send 1000x more or less than

+> intended if we go down this road,

+>

+>

+> Exceptionally unlikely - I deal every day with currencies with 0, 2 and 3

+> dp's in amount ranging from 'under 1 whole unit' to tens of thousands - Not

+> once in 20 years has anyone ever 'sent' more or less than intended - oh,

+> they've 'intended' to underpay just fine, but never *unintended*.

+>

+> I propose that users are offered a preference to denominate the

+> Bitcoin currency in a unit called a bit. Where one bitcoin (BTC)

+> equals one million bits (bits) and one bit equals 100 satoshis.

+>

+>

+> I propose that for people unable to understand what a bitcoin is, they can

+> just use satoshi's and drop this entire proposal.

+>

+> Rob

+>

+>

+>

+> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

+> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book

+> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their

+> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,

+> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!

+> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech

+> _______________________________________________

+> Bitcoin-development mailing list

+> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net

+> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

+>

+>

+>

+>

+> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

+> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book

+> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their

+> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,

+> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!

+> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech

+> _______________________________________________

+> Bitcoin-development mailing list

+> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net

+> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

+>

+>

+>

+>

+>

+> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

+> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book

+> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their

+> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,

+> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech

+>

+>

+>

+> _______________________________________________

+> Bitcoin-development mailing listBitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

+>

+>

+>

+>

+> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

+> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book

+> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their

+> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,

+> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!

+> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech

+> _______________________________________________

+> Bitcoin-development mailing list

+> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net

+> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

+>

+>

+

+--001a11c2c104f9dd9304f77bbeb2

+Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8

+Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

+

+<p dir=3D"ltr">The term bit is really only overloaded for those who are tec=

+hy. 95% of the population never uses the term bit in their daily lives and =

+I doubt most could even name one use of the term. <br>

+Plus bit used to be a unit of money way back when, so this is kind of recla=

+iming it. I think it&#39;s a great fit.</p>

+<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Apr 20, 2014 11:52 AM, &quot;Alan Reiner&quot=

+; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:etotheipi@gmail.com">etotheipi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wr=

+ote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=

+gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

+

+ =20

+ =20

+ =20

+ <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">

+ I&#39;ve been a staunch supporter of &quot;microbitcoin&quot; and would=

+ like to do

+ anything I can to make sure that we jump directly to it if we&#39;re

+ going to promote changing the default units.=C2=A0 And I&#39;m happy to

+ integrate it into Armory as a default (with appropriate explanations

+ and settings/options).=C2=A0 I&#39;m not so convinced about the &quot;b=

+its&quot; name

+ though -- I do like it, but I do also think that word is too

+ overloaded.=C2=A0 Though, I think we could get away with it.=C2=A0 <br>

+ <br>

+ (Sadly, I still use &quot;microbes&quot; occasionally (as in <b>microb<=

+/b>itcoin)

+ when I&#39;m talking to coworkers, because it slips off the tongue and

+ is actually a good combination of brevity and self-explanatory -- it

+ just doesn&#39;t instill the right visuals...)<br>

+ <br>

+ We started integrating alternative units into Armory.=C2=A0 But, of

+ course, there were a few more loose ends than I expected, which will

+ require some work.=C2=A0=C2=A0 We want to put it in but not necessarily=

+ change

+ the default right away.=C2=A0 I&#39;d <i>prefer</i> we get some commitm=

+ents

+ from some other wallet developers, so we can make a unified push for

+ it.=C2=A0 I&#39;m happy to lead that and make it default as long as I&#=

+39;m not

+ the only one in the world doing it.<br>

+ <br>

+ -Alan<br>

+ <br>

+ <br>

+ <br>

+ <div>On 04/20/2014 11:05 AM, Tamas Blummer

+ wrote:<br>

+ </div>

+ <blockquote type=3D"cite">

+ =20

+ <div>Here is an earlier reference to bits:</div>

+ <div><br>

+ </div>

+ <div><a href=3D"https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@list=

+s.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html" target=3D"_blank">https://www.mail-archive=

+.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04248.html</a></div>

+ <div><br>

+ </div>

+ <div>I forgot that Alan Reiner was

+ also supporting a unit equals to bits :</div>

+ <div>

+ <div><br>

+ </div>

+ <div><a href=3D"https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@li=

+sts.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html" target=3D"_blank">https://www.mail-archi=

+ve.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04264.html</a></div>

+

+ <div><br>

+ </div>

+ </div>

+ <div>and here the earlier going back

+ to March 2013 and a poll at that time pushing for XBT being 1

+ bit</div>

+ <div><br>

+ </div>

+ <div><a href=3D"https://www.mail-archive.com/bitcoin-development@list=

+s.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html" target=3D"_blank">https://www.mail-archive=

+.com/bitcoin-development%40lists.sourceforge.net/msg04256.html</a></div>

+ <div><br>

+ </div>

+ <div><span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-varian=

+t:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;display:inline!important=

+;font-weight:normal;float:none;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;font-=

+size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">Regard=

+s,</span><br style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:no=

+rmal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-heig=

+ht:normal;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family=

+:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">

+

+ <br style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:nor=

+mal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-heigh=

+t:normal;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:=

+Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">

+

+ <span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant:n=

+ormal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;display:inline!important;fo=

+nt-weight:normal;float:none;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;font-siz=

+e:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">Tamas Blu=

+mmer</span><span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-varian=

+t:normal;text-align:start;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;line-height:=

+normal;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:He=

+lvetica;word-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:norma=

+l;font-variant:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;font-weight=

+:normal;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;font-size:12px;white-space:n=

+ormal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px">

+

+ <span style=3D"text-indent:0px;letter-spacing:normal;font-variant=

+:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto;font-style:normal;display:inline!important;=

+font-weight:normal;float:none;line-height:normal;text-transform:none;font-s=

+ize:12px;white-space:normal;font-family:Helvetica;word-spacing:0px"><a href=

+=3D"http://bitsofproof.com" target=3D"_blank">http://bitsofproof.com</a></s=

+pan>

+ </span></div>

+ <br>

+ <div>

+ <div>On 20.04.2014, at 16:53, Pieter Wuille &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:p=

+ieter.wuille@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">pieter.wuille@gmail.com</a>&gt;

+ wrote:</div>

+ <br>

+ <blockquote type=3D"cite">I told him specifically to bring it here

+ (on a pull request for<br>

+ Bitcoin Core), as there is no point in making such convention

+ changes<br>

+ to just one client.<br>

+ <br>

+ I wasn&#39;t aware of any discussion about the &quot;bits&quot; p=

+roposal

+ here before.<br>

+ <br>

+ On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 4:28 PM, Tamas Blummer &lt;<a href=3D"mai=

+lto:tamas@bitsofproof.com" target=3D"_blank">tamas@bitsofproof.com</a>&gt;

+ wrote:<br>

+ <blockquote type=3D"cite">People on this list are mostly

+ engineers who have no problem dealing with<br>

+ magnitudes and have rather limited empathy for people who

+ have a problem<br>

+ with them.<br>

+ They also tend to think, that because they invented money

+ 2.0 they would not<br>

+ need to care of finance&#39;s or people&#39;s current customs.<=

+br>

+ <br>

+ The importance of their decisions in these questions will

+ fade as people<br>

+ already use wallets other than the core.<br>

+ <br>

+ Bring this particular discussion elsewhere, to the wallet

+ developer.<br>

+ <br>

+ BTW the topic was discussed here several times, you have my

+ support and Jeff<br>

+ Garzik&#39;s.<br>

+ <br>

+ Regards,<br>

+ <br>

+ Tamas Blummer<br>

+ <a href=3D"http://bitsofproof.com" target=3D"_blank">http://bit=

+sofproof.com</a><br>

+ <br>

+ On 20.04.2014, at 15:15, Rob Golding

+ <a href=3D"mailto:rob.golding@astutium.com" target=3D"_blank">&=

+lt;rob.golding@astutium.com&gt;</a> wrote:<br>

+ <br>

+ The average person is not going to be confident that the

+ prefix they<br>

+ are using is the correct one,<br>

+ <br>

+ <br>

+ The use of any &#39;prefix&#39; is one of choice and entirely

+ unnecessary, and there<br>

+ are already established &#39;divisions&#39; in u/mBTC for those=

+ that

+ feel they need<br>

+ to use such things.<br>

+ <br>

+ people WILL send 1000x more or less than<br>

+ intended if we go down this road,<br>

+ <br>

+ <br>

+ Exceptionally unlikely - I deal every day with currencies

+ with 0, 2 and 3<br>

+ dp&#39;s in amount ranging from &#39;under 1 whole unit&#39; to=

+ tens of

+ thousands - Not<br>

+ once in 20 years has anyone ever &#39;sent&#39; more or less th=

+an

+ intended - oh,<br>

+ they&#39;ve &#39;intended&#39; to underpay just fine, but never

+ *unintended*.<br>

+ <br>

+ I propose that users are offered a preference to denominate

+ the<br>

+ Bitcoin currency in a unit called a bit. Where one bitcoin

+ (BTC)<br>

+ equals one million bits (bits) and one bit equals 100

+ satoshis.<br>

+ <br>

+ <br>

+ I propose that for people unable to understand what a

+ bitcoin is, they can<br>

+ just use satoshi&#39;s and drop this entire proposal.<br>

+ <br>

+ Rob<br>

+ <br>

+ <br>

+---------------------------------------------------------------------------=

+---<br>

+ Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O&#39;Reilly Book<br>

+ &quot;Graph Databases&quot; is the definitive new guide to grap=

+h

+ databases and their<br>

+ applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the

+ field,<br>

+ this first edition is now available. Download your free book

+ today!<br>

+ <a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech" target=3D"_blank">http:=

+//p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech</a><br>

+ _______________________________________________<br>

+ Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>

+ <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" ta=

+rget=3D"_blank">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>

+<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=

+" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=

+velopment</a><br>

+ <br>

+ <br>

+ <br>

+---------------------------------------------------------------------------=

+---<br>

+ Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O&#39;Reilly Book<br>

+ &quot;Graph Databases&quot; is the definitive new guide to grap=

+h

+ databases and their<br>

+ applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the

+ field,<br>

+ this first edition is now available. Download your free book

+ today!<br>

+ <a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech" target=3D"_blank">http:=

+//p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech</a><br>

+ _______________________________________________<br>

+ Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>

+ <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" ta=

+rget=3D"_blank">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>

+<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=

+" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=

+velopment</a><br>

+ <br>

+ </blockquote>

+ <br>

+ </blockquote>

+ </div>

+ <br>

+ <br>

+ <fieldset></fieldset>

+ <br>

+ <pre>----------------------------------------------------------------=

+--------------

+Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O&#39;Reilly Book

+&quot;Graph Databases&quot; is the definitive new guide to graph databases =

+and their

+applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,

+this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!

+<a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech" target=3D"_blank">http://p.sf.net/s=

+fu/NeoTech</a></pre>

+ <br>

+ <fieldset></fieldset>

+ <br>

+ <pre>_______________________________________________

+Bitcoin-development mailing list

+<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_bla=

+nk">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a>

+<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=

+" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=

+velopment</a>

+</pre>

+ </blockquote>

+ <br>

+ </div>

+

+<br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------=

+-------<br>

+Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O&#39;Reilly Book<br>

+&quot;Graph Databases&quot; is the definitive new guide to graph databases =

+and their<br>

+applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,<br>

+this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!<br>

+<a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech" target=3D"_blank">http://p.sf.net/s=

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+<br></blockquote></div>

+

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+

+