diff options
| author | Bob Burnett <bob.burnett@barefootmining.com> | 2025-05-21 13:38:22 +0000 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> | 2025-05-21 06:44:10 -0700 |
| commit | 89fa560d308159425eec7f6e719842b6e99b8ce5 (patch) | |
| tree | b06add691fd33696d42a6f66ded2740f9c338e3a | |
| parent | ebb4f0cc7da5d8ed1506f80d213cd267385d7f26 (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-89fa560d308159425eec7f6e719842b6e99b8ce5.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-89fa560d308159425eec7f6e719842b6e99b8ce5.zip | |
Re: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate Position
| -rw-r--r-- | 00/20dbb78e42ab5e1da926aae5e95a2baf1e89f9 | 627 |
1 files changed, 627 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/00/20dbb78e42ab5e1da926aae5e95a2baf1e89f9 b/00/20dbb78e42ab5e1da926aae5e95a2baf1e89f9 new file mode 100644 index 000000000..a49336c77 --- /dev/null +++ b/00/20dbb78e42ab5e1da926aae5e95a2baf1e89f9 @@ -0,0 +1,627 @@ +Delivery-date: Wed, 21 May 2025 06:44:10 -0700 +Received: from mail-oi1-f183.google.com ([209.85.167.183]) + by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 + (Exim 4.94.2) + (envelope-from <bitcoindev+bncBDOZFSV74ALBBH5RW7AQMGQETDZ4L6Y@googlegroups.com>) + id 1uHjjt-0002S3-CC + for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Wed, 21 May 2025 06:44:10 -0700 +Received: by mail-oi1-f183.google.com with SMTP id 5614622812f47-400b3a7e259sf2477732b6e.3 + for <bitcoindev@gnusha.org>; Wed, 21 May 2025 06:44:09 -0700 (PDT) +ARC-Seal: i=3; a=rsa-sha256; t=1747835043; cv=pass; + d=google.com; s=arc-20240605; + b=BTvxuaC0ninCeSXlNGiU42JfScJpoK6HmKVLITjP4U3mFGsFgXDj0/gr+4zSq7pjtf + oAfA3QEwdaTVnBwuGAmzmDwyUTxKUl2Tzf+t/Drg80/8wklvrBkFFNAijgLn61wx5x7j + bKnsr2V1FC5AlAM6SBjh2XECboFHCadkQ9jD348koNMQGw/e1DTPbVmfgZ7F8B/QjFxN + Cz7lmqZLnolUuTULTt5TRPEvi1ZC9IgKD4K5Faxj2r3CGb9T8pjxr1e4Hsg/6gmJHeyU + zoCO/dzDoCrAUna46ciyrggQSks9bh26XtuB5Y0EbjuMBgVdnU/6zqX8sk3MSyHVoKjG + B+vA== +ARC-Message-Signature: i=3; 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Wed, 21 May 2025 + 13:38:22 +0000 +From: Bob Burnett <bob.burnett@barefootmining.com> +To: Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl>, Bitcoin Development Mailing List + <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> +Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate Position +Thread-Topic: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate + Position +Thread-Index: AQHbykJbZQJfwvE0qEqhK+BEG7Guo7PdDBbE +Date: Wed, 21 May 2025 13:38:22 +0000 +Message-ID: <BY5PR03MB5171DDFE69276B128E84B81E969EA@BY5PR03MB5171.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> +References: <rhfyCHr4RfaEalbfGejVdolYCVWIyf84PT2062DQbs5-eU8BPYty5sGyvI3hKeRZQtVC7rn_ugjUWFnWCymz9e9Chbn7FjWJePllFhZRKYk=@protonmail.com> + <IpyzvdqFhM_40OKYdilNrHU9u_cIx7BKlYKBUgTGPW6idPAItRiza5tq8B1jEs141ypieLGkR2UMRIxg0qdxBMl6DQ3UKaQsID0gBjWLXtY=@protonmail.com> + <aBUlEOBqqrOIGHWC@petertodd.org> + <7Q6uglccxrI_LPvP2bKeTwFcBAKJ5u8u6NHtDl-dNev_kplv2lfh46r-z2iflmtnnsa8YWgn1A2M8S0jLORI2GxwNQ7qmfyM2jqQiB6JTiw=@protonmail.com> + <CAAS2fgRyu1HKHDk_aCyHXqe+sgYpcApjmXx3Ps4ChpBAxeBcpw@mail.gmail.com> + <BY5PR03MB5171FCC38022BF80272729FD969EA@BY5PR03MB5171.namprd03.prod.outlook.com> + <7D52F0F3-9884-4651-9915-D3FCF575F547@sprovoost.nl> +In-Reply-To: <7D52F0F3-9884-4651-9915-D3FCF575F547@sprovoost.nl> +Accept-Language: en-US +Content-Language: en-US +X-MS-Has-Attach: +X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: +x-ms-reactions: allow +x-ms-publictraffictype: Email +x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BY5PR03MB5171:EE_|MN2PR03MB5120:EE_ +x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 29c802eb-9c69-4fd4-7587-08dd986cc13c +x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 +x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 +x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;ARA:13230040|1800799024|366016|4022899009|376014|38070700018|13003099007|8096899003; 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+ spf=pass (google.com: domain of bob.burnett@barefootmining.com + designates 2a01:111:f403:c102:: as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bob.burnett@barefootmining.com +Precedence: list +Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com +List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com> +X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 +List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> +List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com> +List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev +List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com> +List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>, + <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe> +X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) + +--_000_BY5PR03MB5171DDFE69276B128E84B81E969EABY5PR03MB5171namp_ +Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +On the =E2=80=9Clikely=E2=80=9D it is because most high growth, early-stage= + industries go through this same change. This is because it is extremely d= +ifficult for companies to adapt and change through periods of high growth. = +It requires constant changes and improvements in personnel, processes, mark= +eting, operations, etc. It is extremely hard to keep pace. A few in our = +industry probably will navigate it and survive to the 10 or 20-year mark bu= +t most will vanish. I=E2=80=99m not wishing ill on organization =E2=80=93 = +just saying that history is not on their side. In the PC market the leader= +s changed radically from 1985 to 1995 and then again to 2005. IBM was numb= +er 1 in 1985, and they exited the business by 2005. Compaq was #1 in 1994, = +and they were gone by 2000. Another example is cell phones, 2000, the lea= +ding cell phone companies were Nokia and Motorola. Even in 2007 Nokia had = +about 50% market share, but by 2017 they were essentially dead. + +On your other point regarding non-standard, I think you may have misunderst= +ood my point. For me, the issue in the future in not about services for no= +n-standard transactions but about giving users a mechanism whereby they can= + get assurances about future access and cost of block space. For instance,= + a user of block space (ex. Swan, River, Coinbase) might know that they wil= +l have a lot of demand for block space in October because they are going to= + be doing a major marketing campaign then. The campaign would result in a = +lot of UTXO consolidation and self-custody. The problem for them is that s= +itting here in May they have no idea how much demand there will be for bloc= +k space and what the cost of that block space will be. By getting the righ= +t arrangement with a miner (or coalition of miners), they will be able to g= +et guarantees of access to October block space and lock in cost for that sp= +ace. (While this exact scenario is just an example, I can say that I am a= +lready working on some similar things.) + +From: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> on behalf o= +f Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl> +Date: Wednesday, May 21, 2025 at 7:20=E2=80=AFAM +To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> +Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate= + Position + +Op 21 mei 2025, om 04:10 heeft Bob Burnett <bob.burnett@barefootmining.com>= + het volgende geschreven: + +[..] + + +That said, I suggest being very careful about projecting the current behavi= +or of major miners as the norm or representative of the future. We are ext= +remely early in the development of the mining industry and there is a high = +likelihood that over the next few years that there will a dramatic change i= +n the list of major miners =E2=80=93 and there very well may be changes in = +the philosophies and priorities of these miners as well. + +I don't know what your claim of "likely" is based on, but it's certainly po= +ssible. However, we have to design the protocol for the worst case behaviou= +r. + +Assuming that =E2=80=9Cmajor miners=E2=80=9D was meant to mean a group that= + largely is comprised of pubcos, none of the major players in the mining in= +dustry have been doing it for long - with most going public very recently (= +=E2=80=9922 and =E2=80=9923). + +Here's a non-standard OP_RETURN mined by Eligius, not a pubco, in 2013: +https://mempool.space/nl/tx/d29c9c0e8e4d2a9790922af73f0b8d51f0bd4bb19940d9c= +f910ead8fbe85bc9b + +One example is just an anecdote of course, perhaps you could present data t= +hat shows older industry players hardly mine non-standard transactions. + +Finally, I don=E2=80=99t see any compelling reason for a change in OP_RETUR= +N policy or configurability. I speak to a lot of other miners as well and = +I don=E2=80=99t know of one a single one that feels any change is beneficia= +l to them now. + +It's not beneficial to large miners. They benefit from centralisation. It's= + good for them to offer paid services that bypass standardness. + +- Sjors + +-- +You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= +Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. +To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= +mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscri= +be@googlegroups.com>. +To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= +7D52F0F3-9884-4651-9915-D3FCF575F547%40sprovoost.nl<https://groups.google.c= +om/d/msgid/bitcoindev/7D52F0F3-9884-4651-9915-D3FCF575F547%40sprovoost.nl?u= +tm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter>. + +--=20 +You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= +Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. +To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= +mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. +To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= +BY5PR03MB5171DDFE69276B128E84B81E969EA%40BY5PR03MB5171.namprd03.prod.outloo= +k.com. + +--_000_BY5PR03MB5171DDFE69276B128E84B81E969EABY5PR03MB5171namp_ +Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +<html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:sc= +hemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/of= +fice/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> +<head> +<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"> +<meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)"> +<style><!-- +/* Font Definitions */ +@font-face + {font-family:"Cambria Math"; + panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} +@font-face + {font-family:Aptos; + panose-1:2 11 0 4 2 2 2 2 2 4;} +/* Style Definitions */ +p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal + {margin:0in; + font-size:10.0pt; + font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif;} +a:link, span.MsoHyperlink + {mso-style-priority:99; + color:blue; + text-decoration:underline;} +span.EmailStyle19 + {mso-style-type:personal-reply; + font-family:"Aptos",sans-serif; + color:windowtext;} +.MsoChpDefault + {mso-style-type:export-only; + font-size:10.0pt; + mso-ligatures:none;} +@page WordSection1 + {size:8.5in 11.0in; + margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} +div.WordSection1 + {page:WordSection1;} +--></style> +</head> +<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:brea= +k-word;line-break:after-white-space"> +<div class=3D"WordSection1"> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">On the =E2=80=9Clik= +ely=E2=80=9D it is because most high growth, early-stage industries go thro= +ugh this same change. This is because it is extremely difficult for c= +ompanies to adapt and change through periods of high growth. + It requires constant changes and improvements in personnel, processes, mar= +keting, operations, etc. It is extremely hard to keep pace.&nbs= +p; A few in our industry probably will navigate it and survive to the 10 or= + 20-year mark but most will vanish. I=E2=80=99m not wishing + ill on organization =E2=80=93 just saying that history is not on their sid= +e. In the PC market the leaders changed radically from 1985 to 1995 a= +nd then again to 2005. IBM was number 1 in 1985, and they exited the = +business by 2005. Compaq was #1 in 1994, and they + were gone by 2000. Another example is cell phones, 2000, the l= +eading cell phone companies were Nokia and Motorola. Even in 2007 Nok= +ia had about 50% market share, but by 2017 they were essentially dead. = +; +<o:p></o:p></span></p> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></= +span></p> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">On your other point= + regarding non-standard, I think you may have misunderstood my point. = + For me, the issue in the future in not about services for non-standard tra= +nsactions but about giving users a mechanism + whereby they can get assurances about future access and cost of block spac= +e. For instance, a user of block space (ex. Swan, River, Coinbase) mi= +ght know that they will have a lot of demand for block space in October bec= +ause they are going to be doing a major + marketing campaign then. The campaign would result in a lot of UTXO = +consolidation and self-custody. The problem for them is that sitting = +here in May they have no idea how much demand there will be for block space= + and what the cost of that block space will + be. By getting the right arrangement with a miner (or coalition of m= +iners), they will be able to get guarantees of access to October block spac= +e and lock in cost for that space. (While this exact scenario i= +s just an example, I can say that I am already + working on some similar things.)<o:p></o:p></span></p> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></= +span></p> +<div id=3D"mail-editor-reference-message-container"> +<div> +<div> +<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = +0in 0in"> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style=3D"fon= +t-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: +</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">bitcoindev@googlegr= +oups.com <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Sjors Provoost &l= +t;sjors@sprovoost.nl><br> +<b>Date: </b>Wednesday, May 21, 2025 at 7:20</span><span style=3D"font-size= +:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">=E2=80=AF</sp= +an><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">AM<br> +<b>To: </b>Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com= +><br> +<b>Subject: </b>Re: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's A= +dvocate Position<o:p></o:p></span></p> +</div> +<div> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></= +span></p> +</div> +<div> +<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> +<div> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Op 21 mei 2025, om = +04:10 heeft Bob Burnett <bob.burnett@barefootmining.com> het volgende= + geschreven:<o:p></o:p></span></p> +</div> +</blockquote> +<div> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></= +span></p> +</div> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">[..]<br> +<br> +<o:p></o:p></span></p> +<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> +<div> +<div> +<div> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"> </span><o:p><= +/o:p></p> +</div> +<div> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">That said, I sugges= +t being very careful about projecting the current behavior of major miners = +as the norm or representative of the future. We are extremely early i= +n the development of the mining industry + and there is a high likelihood that over the next few years that there wil= +l a dramatic change in the list of major miners =E2=80=93 and there very we= +ll may be changes in the philosophies and priorities of these miners as wel= +l. </span><o:p></o:p></p> +</div> +</div> +</div> +</blockquote> +<div> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></= +span></p> +</div> +<div> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">I don't know what y= +our claim of "likely" is based on, but it's certainly possible. H= +owever, we have to design the protocol for the worst case behaviour.<o:p></= +o:p></span></p> +</div> +<div> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></= +span></p> +</div> +<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> +<div> +<div> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Assuming that =E2= +=80=9Cmajor miners=E2=80=9D was meant to mean a group that largely is compr= +ised of pubcos, none of the major players in the mining industry have been = +doing it for long - with most going public very recently + (=E2=80=9922 and =E2=80=9923). </span><o:p></o:p></p> +</div> +</div> +</blockquote> +<div> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></= +span></p> +</div> +<div> +<div> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">Here's a non-standa= +rd OP_RETURN mined by Eligius, not a pubco, in 2013:<o:p></o:p></span></p> +</div> +<div> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><a href=3D"https://= +mempool.space/nl/tx/d29c9c0e8e4d2a9790922af73f0b8d51f0bd4bb19940d9cf910ead8= +fbe85bc9b">https://mempool.space/nl/tx/d29c9c0e8e4d2a9790922af73f0b8d51f0bd= +4bb19940d9cf910ead8fbe85bc9b</a><o:p></o:p></span></p> +</div> +<div> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></= +span></p> +</div> +<div> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">One example is just= + an anecdote of course, perhaps you could present data that shows older ind= +ustry players hardly mine non-standard transactions.<o:p></o:p></span></p> +</div> +</div> +<div> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></= +span></p> +</div> +<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"> +<div> +<div> +<div> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Finally, I don=E2= +=80=99t see any compelling reason for a change in OP_RETURN policy or confi= +gurability. I speak to a lot of other miners as well and I don=E2=80= +=99t know of one a single one that feels any change is beneficial + to them now. </span><o:p></o:p></p> +</div> +</div> +</div> +</blockquote> +<div> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></= +span></p> +</div> +<div> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">It's not beneficial= + to large miners. They benefit from centralisation. It's good for them to o= +ffer paid services that bypass standardness.<o:p></o:p></span></p> +</div> +<div> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></= +span></p> +</div> +<div> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">- Sjors<o:p></o:p><= +/span></p> +</div> +</div> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></= +span></p> +<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt">-- <br> +You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= +quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.<br> +To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= +mail to +<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">bitcoindev+unsub= +scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br> +To view this discussion visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= +bitcoindev/7D52F0F3-9884-4651-9915-D3FCF575F547%40sprovoost.nl?utm_medium= +=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter"> +https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/7D52F0F3-9884-4651-9915-D3FCF5= +75F547%40sprovoost.nl</a>.<o:p></o:p></span></p> +</div> +</div> +</div> +</div> +</body> +</html> + +<p></p> + +-- <br /> +You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= +quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.<br /> +To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= +mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">bitcoind= +ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br /> +To view this discussion visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= +bitcoindev/BY5PR03MB5171DDFE69276B128E84B81E969EA%40BY5PR03MB5171.namprd03.= +prod.outlook.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.goo= +gle.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/BY5PR03MB5171DDFE69276B128E84B81E969EA%40BY5PR03= +MB5171.namprd03.prod.outlook.com</a>.<br /> + +--_000_BY5PR03MB5171DDFE69276B128E84B81E969EABY5PR03MB5171namp_-- + |