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| author | Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail.com> | 2015-11-09 11:27:22 -0500 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2015-11-09 16:27:25 +0000 |
| commit | 78807a3c2528fcd8bf127d2164270b8ea8ce1d9b (patch) | |
| tree | 68fe5fb8939b6388849aaefc2b76ae990f83f43c | |
| parent | efe67f9cd7e381fb0586eceef09540e065d992e9 (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-78807a3c2528fcd8bf127d2164270b8ea8ce1d9b.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-78807a3c2528fcd8bf127d2164270b8ea8ce1d9b.zip | |
Re: [bitcoin-dev] summarising security assumptions (re cost metrics)
| -rw-r--r-- | 3e/fe84270278a28030197faa3546ab25646a906b | 132 |
1 files changed, 132 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/3e/fe84270278a28030197faa3546ab25646a906b b/3e/fe84270278a28030197faa3546ab25646a906b new file mode 100644 index 000000000..072101010 --- /dev/null +++ b/3e/fe84270278a28030197faa3546ab25646a906b @@ -0,0 +1,132 @@ +Return-Path: <gavinandresen@gmail.com> +Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org + [172.17.192.35]) + by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 98D5E405 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Mon, 9 Nov 2015 16:27:25 +0000 (UTC) +X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 +Received: from mail-lb0-f172.google.com (mail-lb0-f172.google.com + [209.85.217.172]) + by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D510317A + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Mon, 9 Nov 2015 16:27:24 +0000 (UTC) +Received: by lbbkw15 with SMTP id kw15so96560553lbb.0 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Mon, 09 Nov 2015 08:27:23 -0800 (PST) +DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; + h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to + :cc:content-type; + bh=1PrdxDLrmftCMId5c1Aea38Z/uDv6wEsbgaQ0DJakfc=; + b=1IXKY1lLkV5hkf3EqAtXPzE/Oc+B14otZu4yXtsEzPpiTu+P+zkczmgAU69A1/LNHF + 9s/qOYCSUiP23/+K5fblzrbss+H9/0AF/wT9oOTJUNg+d43+QfhAp6rnPlvj43uBMnM+ + 4PullScJgQkEKJQrpbniCA6vPDgCvWFA6K9+amUCPH4DlGQJYbgt5QdphupbvwNnVxVT + WDdDXiIu0SRhdDftO6SWwzzsj5rvyC0yg4/zjX2MV8/Q4gtluTSRgndI2acAtscyjeWb + SgqTVg8hY78zDoFoty9/ni4y5X1FIj679v3ykMClUOPxNeFFF6cBID9ZAoAjZwMHfFn3 + FiDw== +MIME-Version: 1.0 +X-Received: by 10.112.141.201 with SMTP id rq9mr8108338lbb.4.1447086442902; + Mon, 09 Nov 2015 08:27:22 -0800 (PST) +Received: by 10.25.22.95 with HTTP; Mon, 9 Nov 2015 08:27:22 -0800 (PST) +In-Reply-To: <CABaSBaxKQe2SnMuwHq-7482BmY+vvD4SefKjXxEPhxZTOoyHrA@mail.gmail.com> +References: <CALqxMTE1JDsT8fSoDZVTUWfnw4Cmb9LkDa+B-XUyXGPxAYernA@mail.gmail.com> + <CABsx9T0T6QuYRmNyF_F124GyQ2EX5w93HCPLvrd4L5P6=xj_Xw@mail.gmail.com> + <CABaSBaxKQe2SnMuwHq-7482BmY+vvD4SefKjXxEPhxZTOoyHrA@mail.gmail.com> +Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2015 11:27:22 -0500 +Message-ID: <CABsx9T081xkFgwGQ-vrnm_yDAVpZunQFxAEbBBJXXaSxOOoXcA@mail.gmail.com> +From: Gavin Andresen <gavinandresen@gmail.com> +To: Bryan Bishop <kanzure@gmail.com> +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c38b5a637ab405241e11bc +X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, + DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW + autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 +X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on + smtp1.linux-foundation.org +Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] summarising security assumptions (re cost metrics) +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2015 16:27:25 -0000 + +--001a11c38b5a637ab405241e11bc +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 + +On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 12:19 PM, Bryan Bishop <kanzure@gmail.com> wrote: + +> Gavin, could you please provide some clarity around the definition and +> meaning of "key-holder [decentralization]"? Is this about the absolute +> number of key-holders? or rather about the number of transactions (per unit +> time?) that key-holders make? Both/other? +> + +Both. If few transactions are possible, then that limits the number of +key-holders who can participate in the system. + +Imagine the max block size was really small, and stretch your imagination +and just assume there would be enough demand that those small number of +transactions pay enough transaction fees to secure the network. Each +transaction must, therefore, pay a high fee. That limits the number of +keyholders to institutions with very-large-value transactions-- it is the +"Bitcoin as a clearing network for big financial players" model. + +Using the Lightning Network doesn't help, since every Lightning Network +transaction IS a set of Bitcoin transactions, ready to be dropped onto the +main chain. If those Lightning Network transactions don't have enough fees, +then the whole security of the Lightning Protocol falls apart (since it +relies on being able to get timelocked transactions confirmed on the main +chain in case your trading partner cheats). + +There is video of the Poon/Dryja talk: +https://youtu.be/TgjrS-BPWDQ?t=41m58s + +-- +-- +Gavin Andresen + +--001a11c38b5a637ab405241e11bc +Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On S= +un, Nov 8, 2015 at 12:19 PM, Bryan Bishop <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"= +mailto:kanzure@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">kanzure@gmail.com</a>></span= +> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0= +.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-s= +tyle:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Gavin, could you pl= +ease provide some clarity around the definition and meaning of "key-ho= +lder [decentralization]"? Is this about the absolute number of key-hol= +ders? or rather about the number of transactions (per unit time?) that key-= +holders make? Both/other?</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"></div></blockquot= +e></div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Both.=C2=A0 If few transaction= +s are possible, then that limits the number of key-holders who can particip= +ate in the system.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"= +gmail_extra">Imagine the max block size was really small, and stretch your = +imagination and just assume there would be enough demand that those small n= +umber of transactions pay enough transaction fees to secure the network. Ea= +ch transaction must, therefore, pay a high fee. That limits the number of k= +eyholders to institutions with very-large-value transactions-- it is the &q= +uot;Bitcoin as a clearing network for big financial players" model.</d= +iv><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Using th= +e Lightning Network doesn't help, since every Lightning Network transac= +tion IS a set of Bitcoin transactions, ready to be dropped onto the main ch= +ain. If those Lightning Network transactions don't have enough fees, th= +en the whole security of the Lightning Protocol falls apart (since it relie= +s on being able to get timelocked transactions confirmed on the main chain = +in case your trading partner cheats).</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><= +/div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">There is video of the Poon/Dryja talk: =C2= +=A0<a href=3D"https://youtu.be/TgjrS-BPWDQ?t=3D41m58s">https://youtu.be/Tgj= +rS-BPWDQ?t=3D41m58s</a><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class= +=3D"gmail_signature">--<br>Gavin Andresen<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_sign= +ature"><br></div> +</div></div> + +--001a11c38b5a637ab405241e11bc-- + |