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author | Aaron Voisine <voisine@gmail.com> | 2015-06-28 13:56:20 -0700 |
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committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2015-06-28 20:56:22 +0000 |
commit | 7390c04f9e4efbd986f2982abfc14aa50d1c9870 (patch) | |
tree | 27888e495c9039e506e6477c39ffbe57d9f88e07 | |
parent | 2e74310e02386652d5c4500264c5ddd9417bc44d (diff) | |
download | pi-bitcoindev-7390c04f9e4efbd986f2982abfc14aa50d1c9870.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-7390c04f9e4efbd986f2982abfc14aa50d1c9870.zip |
Re: [bitcoin-dev] The need for larger blocks
-rw-r--r-- | dc/a4af80f0020120b16f3add1c66e78c3906620f | 188 |
1 files changed, 188 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/dc/a4af80f0020120b16f3add1c66e78c3906620f b/dc/a4af80f0020120b16f3add1c66e78c3906620f new file mode 100644 index 000000000..075ea6a10 --- /dev/null +++ b/dc/a4af80f0020120b16f3add1c66e78c3906620f @@ -0,0 +1,188 @@ +Return-Path: <voisine@gmail.com> +Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org + [172.17.192.35]) + by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A1EBB19 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Sun, 28 Jun 2015 20:56:22 +0000 (UTC) +X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 +Received: from mail-qk0-f169.google.com (mail-qk0-f169.google.com + [209.85.220.169]) + by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D30781BE + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Sun, 28 Jun 2015 20:56:21 +0000 (UTC) +Received: by qkeo142 with SMTP id o142so85115352qke.1 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Sun, 28 Jun 2015 13:56:21 -0700 (PDT) +DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; + h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to + :content-type; bh=bA3RJ2754ys28CsxDcdLkGyoMwppXDZZhRwtWPH8I14=; + b=nuJJhfk06jA7fGVj3Nl2t4VV5IKcMfyscoSU/QqEy8tWxQnanG+SuWAjki8wVGAz4y + sAT4rBihoaS9qL7gf+Uvdno94qiqmXLAJF4YTzP5xH5bQMLQbNVu9CntfQ7GNRUuZzEB + Hn1R3H31wOYfALMNM1N1ke5idyUgqDtYX5IYESIrciFRibQkhw1diD4Zc5QXI+c5HNTf + S4bFrHP9/ncYOcrgqQTITG2Xl2778+bZNxGqq6D4tEsQHuduwFSdhrwKUTASjdviWVv6 + EjdSGg9FYeXbe75PXZ8XLQYv1d1b1N6n2I7hwbQHSieapp5p+3kMP4aabnlckF42G0tV + z3Ng== +MIME-Version: 1.0 +X-Received: by 10.55.20.16 with SMTP id e16mr24747277qkh.71.1435524981074; + Sun, 28 Jun 2015 13:56:21 -0700 (PDT) +Received: by 10.140.91.37 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Jun 2015 13:56:20 -0700 (PDT) +In-Reply-To: <559022BE.2060503@mail.bihthai.net> +References: <CAPg+sBjOj9eXiDG0F6G54SVKkStF_1HRu2wzGqtFF5X_NAWy4w@mail.gmail.com> + <20150627074259.GA25420@amethyst.visucore.com> + <20150627095501.C59B541A40@smtp.hushmail.com> + <558E78CB.7070207@mail.bihthai.net> + <CACq0ZD5WV-J1H7QA0F2wnErXVFJ3MSxWtQidPhVwaxauoHQz_A@mail.gmail.com> + <559022BE.2060503@mail.bihthai.net> +Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 13:56:20 -0700 +Message-ID: <CACq0ZD5+4f19MCoiDxu8R7oHVki8VnA_f0TdUNGgnyk5PoJ+Mw@mail.gmail.com> +From: Aaron Voisine <voisine@gmail.com> +To: venzen@mail.bihthai.net +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1144d25490316a05199a34cd +X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_05,DKIM_SIGNED, + DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW + autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 +X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on + smtp1.linux-foundation.org +X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 30 Jun 2015 20:41:24 +0000 +Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] The need for larger blocks +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2015 20:56:22 -0000 + +--001a1144d25490316a05199a34cd +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 + +Moving the list to BCC, since this isn't really a technical discussion. + +On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 9:37 AM, Venzen Khaosan <venzen@mail.bihthai.net> +wrote: + +> +> Bitcoin's exchange rate, as a commodity money floating freely in the +> market, will go up and down according to speculative cycles and we +> should conceptually separate its valuation in fiat terms, from its +> fundamental value which is: mathematical consensus, cryptographic +> transaction security and censorship resistance, etc. + + +I get the feeling we might be reasoning from different underlying +assumptions, but I don't think you can separate value that way. Those +fundamental properties were chosen to serve the goal of creating a digital +commodity money. They are useful only in as much as they serve ends that +people value. Consensus, security, censorship resistance are valuable +because they are desirable properties for money to have. + +If you want to argue that the properties of bitcoin are valuable for other +things besides money, that's fine, but those other uses presumably can be +accomplished with tiny amounts of bitcoin, so don't appreciably increase +demand. + + +> These values are +> critically reliant on Bitcoin's *degree of decentralization* for them +> to remain true and for Bitcoin to retain its meaning, and, therefore, +> its value. That is what I point out when I say "greater adoption has +> not reflected in the price chart". And that may remain the case for +> evermore because the value is in the protocol, the blockchain and its +> utility and degree of decentralization, not in the chart or the size +> of the user base +> + +I think it depends on what you mean by "adoption". Adoption as a +store-of-value must necessarily increase the market price given the +restricted and eventually fixed supply. If we're talking about merchant +adoption as a payment system, or increased transaction volume, the yes, +these things have no direct impact on the price. They only impact the price +indirectly in as much as they encourage further adoption as a +store-of-value. + + +> I argue that we already know what the value of Bitcoin is. In its +> current form Bitcoin most likely fulfills 80% or 90% of its eventual +> fully evolved value. Increased adoption will not strengthen the +> fundamentals, so let's proceed with scaling that will safeguard +> Bitcoin's fundamental value and implement protections that ensure +> quality of decentralization. +> + +Increased adoption does strengthen the fundamentals. The most important +fundamental for money is how many other people standardize on the same +money, and want to hold it. This drives it's price in terms of other +commodities. You want to hold what everyone else wants to hold. + +Aaron Voisine +co-founder and CEO +breadwallet.com + +--001a1144d25490316a05199a34cd +Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +<div dir=3D"ltr">Moving the list to BCC, since this isn't really a tech= +nical discussion.<div><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gm= +ail_quote">On Sun, Jun 28, 2015 at 9:37 AM, Venzen Khaosan <span dir=3D"ltr= +"><<a href=3D"mailto:venzen@mail.bihthai.net" target=3D"_blank">venzen@m= +ail.bihthai.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" = +style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:r= +gb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>Bitcoin's= + exchange rate, as a commodity money floating freely in the<br> +market, will go up and down according to speculative cycles and we<br> +should conceptually separate its valuation in fiat terms, from its<br> +fundamental value which is: mathematical consensus, cryptographic<br> +transaction security and censorship resistance, etc. </blockquote><div><br>= +</div><div>I get the feeling we might be reasoning from different underlyin= +g assumptions, but I don't think you can separate value that way. Those= + fundamental properties were chosen to serve the goal of creating a digital= + commodity money. They are useful only in as much as they serve ends that p= +eople value. Consensus, security, censorship resistance are valuable becaus= +e they are desirable properties for money to have.</div><div><br></div><div= +>If you want to argue that the properties of bitcoin are valuable for other= + things besides money, that's fine, but those other uses presumably can= + be accomplished with tiny amounts of bitcoin, so don't appreciably inc= +rease demand.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= +=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(20= +4,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">These values are<br> +critically reliant on Bitcoin's *degree of decentralization* for them<b= +r> +to remain true and for Bitcoin to retain its meaning, and, therefore,<br> +its value. That is what I point out when I say "greater adoption has<b= +r> +not reflected in the price chart". And that may remain the case for<br= +> +evermore because the value is in the protocol, the blockchain and its<br> +utility and degree of decentralization, not in the chart or the size<br> +of the user base<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think it depends on = +what you mean by "adoption". Adoption as a store-of-value must ne= +cessarily increase the market price given the restricted and eventually fix= +ed supply. If we're talking about merchant adoption as a payment system= +, or increased transaction volume, the yes, these things have no direct imp= +act on the price. They only impact the price indirectly in as much as they = +encourage further adoption as a store-of-value.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><bloc= +kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-= +width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;paddin= +g-left:1ex"> +I argue that we already know what the value of Bitcoin is. In its<br> +current form Bitcoin most likely fulfills 80% or 90% of its eventual<br> +fully evolved value. Increased adoption will not strengthen the<br> +fundamentals, so let's proceed with scaling that will safeguard<br> +Bitcoin's fundamental value and implement protections that ensure<br> +quality of decentralization.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Increased = +adoption does strengthen the fundamentals. The most important fundamental f= +or money is how many other people standardize on the same money, and want t= +o hold it. This drives it's price in terms of other commodities. You wa= +nt to hold what everyone else wants to hold.</div></div></div><div class=3D= +"gmail_extra"><div><br>Aaron Voisine</div><div>co-founder and CEO<br><a hre= +f=3D"http://breadwallet.com/" target=3D"_blank">breadwallet.com</a></div></= +div></div> + +--001a1144d25490316a05199a34cd-- + |