diff options
author | Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com> | 2013-06-07 00:22:40 +0200 |
---|---|---|
committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2013-06-06 22:22:48 +0000 |
commit | 72526bfca0fa63571e09814b15f00d032d9242af (patch) | |
tree | 65738d1f23126a78819b903affbd0e270e5ab193 | |
parent | 8169973f5b4f2f005947ccad09770ff0df9c5866 (diff) | |
download | pi-bitcoindev-72526bfca0fa63571e09814b15f00d032d9242af.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-72526bfca0fa63571e09814b15f00d032d9242af.zip |
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Revocability with known trusted escrow services?
-rw-r--r-- | c4/18d17115a4f72df151870287a390df68741899 | 280 |
1 files changed, 280 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/c4/18d17115a4f72df151870287a390df68741899 b/c4/18d17115a4f72df151870287a390df68741899 new file mode 100644 index 000000000..61a8be518 --- /dev/null +++ b/c4/18d17115a4f72df151870287a390df68741899 @@ -0,0 +1,280 @@ +Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192] + helo=mx.sourceforge.net) + by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) + (envelope-from <melvincarvalho@gmail.com>) id 1Ukia0-0008TF-Gc + for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; + Thu, 06 Jun 2013 22:22:48 +0000 +Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com + designates 209.85.217.176 as permitted sender) + client-ip=209.85.217.176; envelope-from=melvincarvalho@gmail.com; + helo=mail-lb0-f176.google.com; +Received: from mail-lb0-f176.google.com ([209.85.217.176]) + by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) + (Exim 4.76) id 1UkiZz-0002nV-0P + for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; + Thu, 06 Jun 2013 22:22:48 +0000 +Received: by mail-lb0-f176.google.com with SMTP id z5so3586024lbh.21 + for <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>; + Thu, 06 Jun 2013 15:22:40 -0700 (PDT) +MIME-Version: 1.0 +X-Received: by 10.112.137.73 with SMTP id qg9mr818994lbb.87.1370557360179; + Thu, 06 Jun 2013 15:22:40 -0700 (PDT) +Received: by 10.112.2.8 with HTTP; Thu, 6 Jun 2013 15:22:40 -0700 (PDT) +In-Reply-To: <CAMGNxUv7wkiUYZ2nZjOP0mEW7bgR0a+CXKyDPq38joU-fMMQ9Q@mail.gmail.com> +References: <CAMGNxUv7wkiUYZ2nZjOP0mEW7bgR0a+CXKyDPq38joU-fMMQ9Q@mail.gmail.com> +Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2013 00:22:40 +0200 +Message-ID: <CAKaEYhKiRutKYeQjLocJJ0L2Yra790WnUiF5Px64Kxv7Q-0z8w@mail.gmail.com> +From: Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com> +To: Peter Vessenes <peter@coinlab.com> +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e01177551990fc304de83c064 +X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) +X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. + See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. + -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for + sender-domain + 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider + (melvincarvalho[at]gmail.com) + -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record + 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message + -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from + author's domain + 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, + not necessarily valid + -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature +X-Headers-End: 1UkiZz-0002nV-0P +Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> +Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Revocability with known trusted escrow + services? +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 +Precedence: list +List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, + <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, + <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2013 22:22:48 -0000 + +--089e01177551990fc304de83c064 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 + +On 6 June 2013 02:19, Peter Vessenes <peter@coinlab.com> wrote: + +> So, this +> http://www.americanbanker.com/bankthink/the-last-straw-for-bitcoin-1059608-1.html?pg=1 article got posted today, noting that FinCEN thinks irrevocable payments +> are money laundering tools. +> +> I will hold my thoughts about the net social good of rent-seeking large +> corporations taking money from consumers over fraudulent reversals. +> Actually, I won't, I just said it. +> +> At any rate, it got me thinking, can we layer on revocability somehow +> without any protocol change, as an opt-in? +> +> My initial scheme is a trusted (hah) escrow service that issues time +> promises for signing. If it doesn't receive a cancel message, it will sign +> at the end of the time. +> +> The addresses would be listed by the escrow service, or in an open +> registry, so you could see if you were going to have a delay period when +> you saw a transaction go out. +> +> This seems sort of poor to me, it imagines that mythical thing, a trusted +> escrow service, and is vulnerable to griefing, but I thought I'd see if +> some of the brighter minds than me can come up with a layer-on approach +> here. +> +> When I think about it, I can imagine that I would put a good number of my +> coins in a one day reversible system, because I would have warning if +> someone wanted to try and spend them, and could do something about it. I'm +> not sure if it gets me anything over a standard escrow arrangement, though. +> + +Also see satoshi's comments on this, though it may be restating what others +have said: + +https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=750.0 + +"Here's an outline of the kind of escrow transaction that's possible in +software. This is not implemented and I probably won't have time to +implement it soon, but just to let you know what's possible. + +The basic escrow: The buyer commits a payment to escrow. The seller +receives a transaction with the money in escrow, but he can't spend it +until the buyer unlocks it. The buyer can release the payment at any time +after that, which could be never. This does not allow the buyer to take the +money back, but it does give him the option to burn the money out of spite +by never releasing it. The seller has the option to release the money back +to the buyer. + +While this system does not guarantee the parties against loss, it takes the +profit out of cheating. + +If the seller doesn't send the goods, he doesn't get paid. The buyer would +still be out the money, but at least the seller has no monetary motivation +to stiff him. + +The buyer can't benefit by failing to pay. He can't get the escrow money +back. He can't fail to pay due to lack of funds. The seller can see that +the funds are committed to his key and can't be sent to anyone else. + +Now, an economist would say that a fraudulent seller could start +negotiating, such as "release the money and I'll give you half of it back", +but at that point, there would be so little trust and so much spite that +negotiation is unlikely. Why on earth would the fraudster keep his word and +send you half if he's already breaking his word to steal it? I think for +modest amounts, almost everyone would refuse on principle alone." + + +> +> Peter +> +> -- +> +> ------------------------------ +> +> [image: CoinLab Logo]PETER VESSENES +> CEO +> +> *peter@coinlab.com * / 206.486.6856 / SKYPE: vessenes +> 71 COLUMBIA ST / SUITE 300 / SEATTLE, WA 98104 +> +> +> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ +> How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments: +> 1. A cloud service to automate IT design, transition and operations +> 2. Dashboards that offer high-level views of enterprise services +> 3. A single system of record for all IT processes +> http://p.sf.net/sfu/servicenow-d2d-j +> _______________________________________________ +> Bitcoin-development mailing list +> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development +> +> + +--089e01177551990fc304de83c064 +Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail= +_quote">On 6 June 2013 02:19, Peter Vessenes <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href= +=3D"mailto:peter@coinlab.com" target=3D"_blank">peter@coinlab.com</a>></= +span> wrote:<br> +<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-= +left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">So, this= + <a href=3D"http://www.americanbanker.com/bankthink/the-last-straw-for-bitc= +oin-1059608-1.html?pg=3D1" target=3D"_blank">http://www.americanbanker.com/= +bankthink/the-last-straw-for-bitcoin-1059608-1.html?pg=3D1</a> =A0article g= +ot posted today, noting that FinCEN thinks irrevocable payments are money l= +aundering tools.=A0<div> + + +<br></div><div>I will hold my thoughts about the net social good of rent-se= +eking large corporations taking money from consumers over fraudulent revers= +als. Actually, I won't, I just said it.<br><div><br></div><div>At any r= +ate, it got me thinking, can we layer on revocability somehow without any p= +rotocol change, as an opt-in?</div> + + +<div><br></div><div>My initial scheme is a trusted (hah) escrow service tha= +t issues time promises for signing. If it doesn't receive a cancel mess= +age, it will sign at the end of the time.=A0</div><div><br></div><div>The a= +ddresses would be listed by the escrow service, or in an open registry, so = +you could see if you were going to have a delay period when you saw a trans= +action go out.</div> + + +<div><br></div><div>This seems sort of poor to me, it imagines that mythica= +l thing, a trusted escrow service, and is vulnerable to griefing, but I tho= +ught I'd see if some of the brighter minds than me can come up with a l= +ayer-on approach here.</div> + + +<div><br></div><div>When I think about it, I can imagine that I would put a= + good number of my coins in a one day reversible system, because I would ha= +ve warning if someone wanted to try and spend them, and could do something = +about it. I'm not sure if it gets me anything over a standard escrow ar= +rangement, though.</div> +</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Also see satoshi's comment= +s on this, though it may be restating what others have said:<br><br><a href= +=3D"https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D750.0">https://bitcointalk.or= +g/index.php?topic=3D750.0</a><br> +<br>"Here's an outline of the kind of escrow transaction that'= +s possible in software.=A0 This is not implemented and I probably won't= + have time to implement it soon, but just to let you know what's possib= +le.<br> +<br>The basic escrow: The buyer commits a payment to escrow. The seller rec= +eives a transaction with the money in escrow, but he can't spend it unt= +il the buyer unlocks it. The buyer can release the payment at any time afte= +r that, which could be never. This does not allow the buyer to take the mon= +ey back, but it does give him the option to burn the money out of spite by = +never releasing it. The seller has the option to release the money back to = +the buyer.<br> +<br>While this system does not guarantee the parties against loss, it takes= + the profit out of cheating.<br><br>If the seller doesn't send the good= +s, he doesn't get paid. The buyer would still be out the money, but at = +least the seller has no monetary motivation to stiff him.<br> +<br>The buyer can't benefit by failing to pay. He can't get the esc= +row money back. He can't fail to pay due to lack of funds. The seller c= +an see that the funds are committed to his key and can't be sent to any= +one else.<br> +<br>Now, an economist would say that a fraudulent seller could start negoti= +ating, such as "release the money and I'll give you half of it bac= +k", but at that point, there would be so little trust and so much spit= +e that negotiation is unlikely. Why on earth would the fraudster keep his w= +ord and send you half if he's already breaking his word to steal it? I = +think for modest amounts, almost everyone would refuse on principle alone.&= +quot;<br> +</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0= +px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div = +dir=3D"ltr"><div><span class=3D""><font color=3D"#888888"> + +<div><br></div><div>Peter<br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir= +=3D"ltr"><br><hr style=3D"font-family:Times;font-size:medium;border-right-w= +idth:0px;border-bottom-width:0px;border-left-width:0px;border-top-style:sol= +id;border-top-color:rgb(204,204,204);margin:10px 0px"> + + +<p style=3D"font-size:medium;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:1= +em"><span style=3D"color:rgb(50,90,135);text-transform:uppercase"><img alt= +=3D"CoinLab Logo" width=3D"130" align=3D"right">PETER=A0<span style=3D"font= +-weight:bold">VESSENES=A0</span><br> + + +<span style=3D"color:rgb(96,58,23);font-size:0.8em">CEO</span></span></p><p= + style=3D"font-size:medium;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:1em= +"><span style=3D"color:rgb(96,58,23);font-size:0.9em"><b><a href=3D"mailto:= +peter@coinlab.com" style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(96,58,23)" targe= +t=3D"_blank">peter@coinlab.com</a>=A0</b>=A0/=A0=A0<a href=3D"tel:206.486.6= +856" value=3D"+12064866856" target=3D"_blank">206.486.6856</a> =A0/=A0<span= + style=3D"font-size:0.7em;text-transform:uppercase">SKYPE:</span>=A0vessene= +s=A0</span><br> + + +<span style=3D"color:rgb(96,58,23);font-size:0.7em;text-transform:uppercase= +">71 COLUMBIA ST / SUITE 300 =A0/=A0 SEATTLE, WA 98104</span></p></div> +</div></font></span></div></div> +<br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------= +-------<br> +How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments:<br> +1. A cloud service to automate IT design, transition and operations<br> +2. Dashboards that offer high-level views of enterprise services<br> +3. A single system of record for all IT processes<br> +<a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/servicenow-d2d-j" target=3D"_blank">http://p= +.sf.net/sfu/servicenow-d2d-j</a><br>_______________________________________= +________<br> +Bitcoin-development mailing list<br> +<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo= +pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br> +<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development= +" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= +velopment</a><br> +<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div> + +--089e01177551990fc304de83c064-- + + |