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authorMelvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com>2013-06-07 00:22:40 +0200
committerbitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org>2013-06-06 22:22:48 +0000
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Re: [Bitcoin-development] Revocability with known trusted escrow services?
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+From: Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com>
+To: Peter Vessenes <peter@coinlab.com>
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+Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>
+Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Revocability with known trusted escrow
+ services?
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+--089e01177551990fc304de83c064
+Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
+
+On 6 June 2013 02:19, Peter Vessenes <peter@coinlab.com> wrote:
+
+> So, this
+> http://www.americanbanker.com/bankthink/the-last-straw-for-bitcoin-1059608-1.html?pg=1 article got posted today, noting that FinCEN thinks irrevocable payments
+> are money laundering tools.
+>
+> I will hold my thoughts about the net social good of rent-seeking large
+> corporations taking money from consumers over fraudulent reversals.
+> Actually, I won't, I just said it.
+>
+> At any rate, it got me thinking, can we layer on revocability somehow
+> without any protocol change, as an opt-in?
+>
+> My initial scheme is a trusted (hah) escrow service that issues time
+> promises for signing. If it doesn't receive a cancel message, it will sign
+> at the end of the time.
+>
+> The addresses would be listed by the escrow service, or in an open
+> registry, so you could see if you were going to have a delay period when
+> you saw a transaction go out.
+>
+> This seems sort of poor to me, it imagines that mythical thing, a trusted
+> escrow service, and is vulnerable to griefing, but I thought I'd see if
+> some of the brighter minds than me can come up with a layer-on approach
+> here.
+>
+> When I think about it, I can imagine that I would put a good number of my
+> coins in a one day reversible system, because I would have warning if
+> someone wanted to try and spend them, and could do something about it. I'm
+> not sure if it gets me anything over a standard escrow arrangement, though.
+>
+
+Also see satoshi's comments on this, though it may be restating what others
+have said:
+
+https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=750.0
+
+"Here's an outline of the kind of escrow transaction that's possible in
+software. This is not implemented and I probably won't have time to
+implement it soon, but just to let you know what's possible.
+
+The basic escrow: The buyer commits a payment to escrow. The seller
+receives a transaction with the money in escrow, but he can't spend it
+until the buyer unlocks it. The buyer can release the payment at any time
+after that, which could be never. This does not allow the buyer to take the
+money back, but it does give him the option to burn the money out of spite
+by never releasing it. The seller has the option to release the money back
+to the buyer.
+
+While this system does not guarantee the parties against loss, it takes the
+profit out of cheating.
+
+If the seller doesn't send the goods, he doesn't get paid. The buyer would
+still be out the money, but at least the seller has no monetary motivation
+to stiff him.
+
+The buyer can't benefit by failing to pay. He can't get the escrow money
+back. He can't fail to pay due to lack of funds. The seller can see that
+the funds are committed to his key and can't be sent to anyone else.
+
+Now, an economist would say that a fraudulent seller could start
+negotiating, such as "release the money and I'll give you half of it back",
+but at that point, there would be so little trust and so much spite that
+negotiation is unlikely. Why on earth would the fraudster keep his word and
+send you half if he's already breaking his word to steal it? I think for
+modest amounts, almost everyone would refuse on principle alone."
+
+
+>
+> Peter
+>
+> --
+>
+> ------------------------------
+>
+> [image: CoinLab Logo]PETER VESSENES
+> CEO
+>
+> *peter@coinlab.com * / 206.486.6856 / SKYPE: vessenes
+> 71 COLUMBIA ST / SUITE 300 / SEATTLE, WA 98104
+>
+>
+> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
+> How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments:
+> 1. A cloud service to automate IT design, transition and operations
+> 2. Dashboards that offer high-level views of enterprise services
+> 3. A single system of record for all IT processes
+> http://p.sf.net/sfu/servicenow-d2d-j
+> _______________________________________________
+> Bitcoin-development mailing list
+> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
+> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
+>
+>
+
+--089e01177551990fc304de83c064
+Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
+Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+
+<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail=
+_quote">On 6 June 2013 02:19, Peter Vessenes <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
+=3D"mailto:peter@coinlab.com" target=3D"_blank">peter@coinlab.com</a>&gt;</=
+span> wrote:<br>
+<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
+left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">So, this=
+ <a href=3D"http://www.americanbanker.com/bankthink/the-last-straw-for-bitc=
+oin-1059608-1.html?pg=3D1" target=3D"_blank">http://www.americanbanker.com/=
+bankthink/the-last-straw-for-bitcoin-1059608-1.html?pg=3D1</a> =A0article g=
+ot posted today, noting that FinCEN thinks irrevocable payments are money l=
+aundering tools.=A0<div>
+
+
+<br></div><div>I will hold my thoughts about the net social good of rent-se=
+eking large corporations taking money from consumers over fraudulent revers=
+als. Actually, I won&#39;t, I just said it.<br><div><br></div><div>At any r=
+ate, it got me thinking, can we layer on revocability somehow without any p=
+rotocol change, as an opt-in?</div>
+
+
+<div><br></div><div>My initial scheme is a trusted (hah) escrow service tha=
+t issues time promises for signing. If it doesn&#39;t receive a cancel mess=
+age, it will sign at the end of the time.=A0</div><div><br></div><div>The a=
+ddresses would be listed by the escrow service, or in an open registry, so =
+you could see if you were going to have a delay period when you saw a trans=
+action go out.</div>
+
+
+<div><br></div><div>This seems sort of poor to me, it imagines that mythica=
+l thing, a trusted escrow service, and is vulnerable to griefing, but I tho=
+ught I&#39;d see if some of the brighter minds than me can come up with a l=
+ayer-on approach here.</div>
+
+
+<div><br></div><div>When I think about it, I can imagine that I would put a=
+ good number of my coins in a one day reversible system, because I would ha=
+ve warning if someone wanted to try and spend them, and could do something =
+about it. I&#39;m not sure if it gets me anything over a standard escrow ar=
+rangement, though.</div>
+</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Also see satoshi&#39;s comment=
+s on this, though it may be restating what others have said:<br><br><a href=
+=3D"https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D750.0">https://bitcointalk.or=
+g/index.php?topic=3D750.0</a><br>
+<br>&quot;Here&#39;s an outline of the kind of escrow transaction that&#39;=
+s possible in software.=A0 This is not implemented and I probably won&#39;t=
+ have time to implement it soon, but just to let you know what&#39;s possib=
+le.<br>
+<br>The basic escrow: The buyer commits a payment to escrow. The seller rec=
+eives a transaction with the money in escrow, but he can&#39;t spend it unt=
+il the buyer unlocks it. The buyer can release the payment at any time afte=
+r that, which could be never. This does not allow the buyer to take the mon=
+ey back, but it does give him the option to burn the money out of spite by =
+never releasing it. The seller has the option to release the money back to =
+the buyer.<br>
+<br>While this system does not guarantee the parties against loss, it takes=
+ the profit out of cheating.<br><br>If the seller doesn&#39;t send the good=
+s, he doesn&#39;t get paid. The buyer would still be out the money, but at =
+least the seller has no monetary motivation to stiff him.<br>
+<br>The buyer can&#39;t benefit by failing to pay. He can&#39;t get the esc=
+row money back. He can&#39;t fail to pay due to lack of funds. The seller c=
+an see that the funds are committed to his key and can&#39;t be sent to any=
+one else.<br>
+<br>Now, an economist would say that a fraudulent seller could start negoti=
+ating, such as &quot;release the money and I&#39;ll give you half of it bac=
+k&quot;, but at that point, there would be so little trust and so much spit=
+e that negotiation is unlikely. Why on earth would the fraudster keep his w=
+ord and send you half if he&#39;s already breaking his word to steal it? I =
+think for modest amounts, almost everyone would refuse on principle alone.&=
+quot;<br>
+</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
+px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div =
+dir=3D"ltr"><div><span class=3D""><font color=3D"#888888">
+
+<div><br></div><div>Peter<br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=
+=3D"ltr"><br><hr style=3D"font-family:Times;font-size:medium;border-right-w=
+idth:0px;border-bottom-width:0px;border-left-width:0px;border-top-style:sol=
+id;border-top-color:rgb(204,204,204);margin:10px 0px">
+
+
+<p style=3D"font-size:medium;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:1=
+em"><span style=3D"color:rgb(50,90,135);text-transform:uppercase"><img alt=
+=3D"CoinLab Logo" width=3D"130" align=3D"right">PETER=A0<span style=3D"font=
+-weight:bold">VESSENES=A0</span><br>
+
+
+<span style=3D"color:rgb(96,58,23);font-size:0.8em">CEO</span></span></p><p=
+ style=3D"font-size:medium;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:1em=
+"><span style=3D"color:rgb(96,58,23);font-size:0.9em"><b><a href=3D"mailto:=
+peter@coinlab.com" style=3D"text-decoration:none;color:rgb(96,58,23)" targe=
+t=3D"_blank">peter@coinlab.com</a>=A0</b>=A0/=A0=A0<a href=3D"tel:206.486.6=
+856" value=3D"+12064866856" target=3D"_blank">206.486.6856</a> =A0/=A0<span=
+ style=3D"font-size:0.7em;text-transform:uppercase">SKYPE:</span>=A0vessene=
+s=A0</span><br>
+
+
+<span style=3D"color:rgb(96,58,23);font-size:0.7em;text-transform:uppercase=
+">71 COLUMBIA ST / SUITE 300 =A0/=A0 SEATTLE, WA 98104</span></p></div>
+</div></font></span></div></div>
+<br>-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
+-------<br>
+How ServiceNow helps IT people transform IT departments:<br>
+1. A cloud service to automate IT design, transition and operations<br>
+2. Dashboards that offer high-level views of enterprise services<br>
+3. A single system of record for all IT processes<br>
+<a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/servicenow-d2d-j" target=3D"_blank">http://p=
+.sf.net/sfu/servicenow-d2d-j</a><br>_______________________________________=
+________<br>
+Bitcoin-development mailing list<br>
+<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net">Bitcoin-develo=
+pment@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br>
+<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development=
+" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de=
+velopment</a><br>
+<br></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
+
+--089e01177551990fc304de83c064--
+
+