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| author | Amir Taaki <zgenjix@yahoo.com> | 2012-07-09 11:18:02 -0700 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2012-07-09 18:18:39 +0000 |
| commit | 6ffa9f5503855d3fd4a9e9de95fa71489801be42 (patch) | |
| tree | 0cea58c33b20f3e2f760bbf42e41b41df765a818 | |
| parent | 43e37fcb27c15be9a6c9622dd141a09d3b83ebeb (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-6ffa9f5503855d3fd4a9e9de95fa71489801be42.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-6ffa9f5503855d3fd4a9e9de95fa71489801be42.zip | |
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Random order for clients page
| -rw-r--r-- | 45/0b7e4f757f7d0e4f71f21967e33c0108da798c | 161 |
1 files changed, 161 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/45/0b7e4f757f7d0e4f71f21967e33c0108da798c b/45/0b7e4f757f7d0e4f71f21967e33c0108da798c new file mode 100644 index 000000000..1221ade2f --- /dev/null +++ b/45/0b7e4f757f7d0e4f71f21967e33c0108da798c @@ -0,0 +1,161 @@ +Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191] + helo=mx.sourceforge.net) + by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) + (envelope-from <zgenjix@yahoo.com>) id 1SoIXf-0001uC-3y + for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; + Mon, 09 Jul 2012 18:18:39 +0000 +X-ACL-Warn: +Received: from nm10-vm1.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([98.138.91.75]) + by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with smtp (Exim 4.76) + id 1SoIXd-0003vj-QV for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; + Mon, 09 Jul 2012 18:18:39 +0000 +Received: from [98.138.90.52] by nm10.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; + 09 Jul 2012 18:18:32 -0000 +Received: from [98.138.88.234] by tm5.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; + 09 Jul 2012 18:18:32 -0000 +Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1034.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; + 09 Jul 2012 18:18:02 -0000 +X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 +X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 166420.3514.bm@omp1034.mail.ne1.yahoo.com +Received: (qmail 78869 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Jul 2012 18:18:02 -0000 +X-YMail-OSG: rg3bEtcVM1ny_tXTMCWGKmH6fyzxA6ybrsLaXIx3titBbWy + u.uypCUhf82G4x8c2f6Na7bKD9UT6b5Plh3qPUjWrHigNSusf7L5LEyGuwFf + Awlq9KQQ8mYT0NDQbOfG85xFYfmi90Pn9R4EBlbYybLPRWmn8psN9QkVS4Bt + Gs99EG0KoJ2d8k503_x810MHSuevMnIRhZgtDo_sHXERvw7Tr_teHYmGSSZq + 1mZkY2JuSZqEepx1WnFhN8k4B6xZVANyk1urvnEj2b6703VpU0lhu0dJrgXM + YzR4lX56b18N0OumOl1TBnrQz0uT6LGwau1PMmT4OawSxF.aAeHKlXwt81J. + 5G32Gcak9Pkeiqm.tkg2oqXhyVqSNPSRAQLPFIZ4pvYZIssqBt9GjZikvcO2 + DVvuXqGq8r1rPbBZPxYPy3fjm1Ad1ewOyPtzO.NZ4GK9OICY2J54DpEVA7Cr + wYknXcFp4jyLC4dvQcGik3TGa59RjmjcmGr5piy1qHhy88JAYi_TNZuzhV02 + IluNdbaPYBQVOc.8nNo.K7XdH9g-- +Received: from [178.5.23.109] by web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; + Mon, 09 Jul 2012 11:18:02 PDT +X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.120.356233 +References: <1341849295.94710.YahooMailNeo@web121003.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> + <CAAS2fgRd0gqrxXs4Le6nydYBaG7EO=T7FrtX6QZpg3aJtAxSvg@mail.gmail.com> + <1341850157.18601.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> + <CAAS2fgQRo4swDTQjPE0PmnpZ9uS+TDNQdOR6q4K70xsNJY9RfQ@mail.gmail.com> +Message-ID: <1341857882.56956.YahooMailNeo@web121006.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> +Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 11:18:02 -0700 (PDT) +From: Amir Taaki <zgenjix@yahoo.com> +To: "bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" + <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> +In-Reply-To: <CAAS2fgQRo4swDTQjPE0PmnpZ9uS+TDNQdOR6q4K70xsNJY9RfQ@mail.gmail.com> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) +X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. + See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. + -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, + no trust [98.138.91.75 listed in list.dnswl.org] + 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider + (zgenjix[at]yahoo.com) + -0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay + domain + -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from + author's domain + 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, + not necessarily valid + -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature + 0.0 FSL_FREEMAIL_2 FSL_FREEMAIL_2 + 0.0 FSL_FREEMAIL_1 FSL_FREEMAIL_1 + -0.0 AWL AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list +X-Headers-End: 1SoIXd-0003vj-QV +Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Random order for clients page +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 +Precedence: list +Reply-To: Amir Taaki <zgenjix@yahoo.com> +List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, + <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, + <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2012 18:18:39 -0000 + +This page really does matter to alternative clients. If you measure the cli= +ck through statistics, then they are a significant portion of the =0Atraffi= +c. By removing this page, you are directly stunting Bitcoin's =0Agrowth.=0A= +=0AThe only thing that's changed between now and this morning is: =0A=0A- A= +ddition of Bitcoin Wallet for Android=0A- Randomisation of entries=0A=0AI a= +ctually got permission from everyone involved before making the page.If you= + want to remove the page, then we should see a vote by:=0A=0A- laanwj=0A- g= +avin=0A- sipa=0A- jgarzik=0A- BlueMatt=0A- Diapolo=0A- luke-jr=0A- you=0A- = +jim from multibit=0A- gary rowe=0A- ThomasV=0A- me=0A- etotheipi=0A- Andrea= +s Schildbach=0A- justmoon=0A- Mike Hearn=0AYou're proposing to remove the p= +age. You know, and I know and I know that you know that nobody visits the W= +iki. Your proposal is not "move to Wiki" really but remove from bitcoin.org= +. Keep bitcoin.org for Bitcoin-Qt only which is against the stated goals of= + the rest of your team members (gavin, sipa, jgarzik).=0A=0A=0AHave you tri= +ed the new clients? I've tried all 4, and they are all well written.=0A=0AT= +ry the new version of Electrum, https://gitorious.org/electrum/electrum - i= +t's more featureful and secure than Bitcoin-Qt what with deterministic wall= +ets, brain-wallets, prioritising addresses, frozen addresses, offline trans= +actions - none of which Bitcoin-Qt has.=0A=0AMultiBit is also very good wit= +h QR integration and the ability for merchants to quickly set themselves up= +. It's full of guiding help text, and has this paradigm to allow people to = +work with keys.=0A=0A=0ABitcoin Wallet for Android has one of the best bitc= +oin UIs I've seen and is extremely well thought out in how the user navigat= +es through the software.=0A=0AThe Bitcoin network could function perfectly = +fine with Electrum nodes and =0Aminers. You would still have miners and we = +wouldn't have the problem now with huge blocks because miners would be econ= +omically incentivised to =0Akeep blocks small. But that's another discussio= +n.=0A=0ATechnically speaking, the randomisation is fine now. It achieves it= +s intended effect, as the page is regenerated daily.=0A=0AThis does not nee= +d to be a source of arguing. I see no problem with having this page be a ne= +utral overview of the main clients (as we all agreed together in the beginn= +ing):=0A- Source must be public, and users must be able to run from source.= +=0A- Description should be non-spammy and neutral sounding. Cover the negat= +ive aspects.=0ARandomisation of the order simply makes that fairer. Alphabe= +tical is not a good option (as others have suggested) because it can be gam= +ed.=0A=0AThere is absolutely no reason to remove this page unless you think= + bitcoin.org is only for Bitcoin-Qt which is against the wishes of gavin, s= +ipa, jgarzik, and the long-term stated goal of bitcoin.org as a neutral res= +ource for the community.=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message -----=0AFrom: Gr= +egory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com>=0ATo: Amir Taaki <zgenjix@yahoo.com>=0AC= +c: "bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" <bitcoin-development@lists.s= +ourceforge.net>=0ASent: Monday, July 9, 2012 6:46 PM=0ASubject: Re: [Bitcoi= +n-development] Random order for clients page=0A=0AOn Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 12= +:09 PM, Amir Taaki <zgenjix@yahoo.com> wrote:=0A> JS randomisation is bad. = +People shouldn't need JS to view a webpage.=0A=0AJS randomization doesn't i= +mply needing JS to view the page. It implies=0Aneeding JS to see it in rand= +om order.=A0 You could also combine it with=0Athe server-side randomization= + if you care about non-js being non=0Arandom, though I don't think it matte= +rs.=0A=0AAs others have pointed out I don't generally think the randomizati= +on=0Ais good in principle, but if its done it should at least achieve its= +=0Agoals.=0A=0A> Only you have a problem with this page. I don't see why Bi= +tcoin-Qt needs to be first either when it dominates the front page. It is p= +erfectly fine as it is.=0A=0AI'll let other people speak for themselves, bu= +t I did consult others=0Abefore reverting your last batch of changes.=0A=0A= +More generally, we have pull requests in order to get some peer review=0Aof= + changes.=A0 Everyone should use them except for changes which are=0Aurgent= + or trivially safe.=A0 (Presumably everyone with access knows how=0Ato tell= + if their changes are likely to be risky or controversial)=0A=0A> You are n= +ot a developer of any alternative clients, and this is a webpage for Bitcoi= +n clients. I have made a change to remove a source of disputes, and make th= +e process more fair and equal. Your suggestion to remove the clients page i= +s your bias towards thinking that there should be only one Bitcoin client t= +hat everyone uses (the one which you contribute towards).=0A=0AI'm strongly= + supportive diversity in the Bitcoin network, and some alt=0Aclient develop= +ers can speak to the positive prodding I've given them=0Atowards becoming m= +ore complete software. If I've said anything that=0Asuggests otherwise I'd = +love to be pointed to it in order to clarify my=0Aposition.=0A=0AUnfortunat= +ely none of the primary alternatives are yet complete, the=0Anetwork would = +be non-function if it consisted entirely of multibit or=0Aelectrum nodes (a= +nd as you've noted armory uses a local reference=0Aclient as its 'server').= +=A0 The distinction between multiple kinds of=0Aclients in terms of securit= +y and network health are subtle and can be=0Adifficult to explain even to t= +echnical users and so until something=0Achanges there the reference client = +needs to be the option we lead=0Awith. People should us it unless their use= +-case doesn't match. When it=0Adoes they'll know it and they'll be looking.= + We don't need to make one=0Aof those recommendations a primary option.=0A= +=0AI like the proposals of moving this stuff to the Wiki as the wiki=0Aalre= +ady contains tons of questionable (and sometimes contradictory)=0Aadvice an= +d so there is less expectation that placement there implies=0Aany vetting.= +=0A + + |