diff options
| author | Dave Scotese <dscotese@litmocracy.com> | 2025-05-27 16:10:07 -0700 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> | 2025-05-27 16:15:13 -0700 |
| commit | 6e657060d5a2fa16154fcbd7a2826e53b90bfd89 (patch) | |
| tree | a6bb2ec7a42fe690bcd8ebdcf393011da39cf793 | |
| parent | c95bf1b3c9261a5cb8c05248d6cf078e64bc3f45 (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-6e657060d5a2fa16154fcbd7a2826e53b90bfd89.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-6e657060d5a2fa16154fcbd7a2826e53b90bfd89.zip | |
Re: [bitcoindev] Proposal to solve the spam war: configurable data blob relay policy
| -rw-r--r-- | ba/61259c48893d67e0a886d622b2568d46f715dc | 358 |
1 files changed, 358 insertions, 0 deletions
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[209.85.128.54]) + by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5b1f17b1804b1-44ffc0dee5csi51835e9.0.2025.05.27.16.10.19 + for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> + (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); + Tue, 27 May 2025 16:10:19 -0700 (PDT) +Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of dscotese@gmail.com designates 209.85.128.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.128.54; +Received: by mail-wm1-f54.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-43edb40f357so33617635e9.0 + for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>; Tue, 27 May 2025 16:10:19 -0700 (PDT) +X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsLD3AYH0Eb+aRXovyDydFBajBEj8B+y8zJc2Z44p35IFioFYWDUlTQwFs65Et + mKuJ+R6AQEbd1p2S+RHOOk6fUZtqnczu69bxcbRbM/ls9QdLgUgdTH2yXy2E3hXi3fPcXrT2jwf + znhyDT40Nysweh+cqMujPOekvQcZEbpOLnmow= +X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:1888:b0:3a4:e8c4:7a78 with SMTP id + ffacd0b85a97d-3a4e8c47cc8mr301587f8f.52.1748387418464; Tue, 27 May 2025 + 16:10:18 -0700 (PDT) +MIME-Version: 1.0 +References: <a2fde16d-5ddd-47ae-8b8f-6ca313d92b66n@googlegroups.com> + <CAMZUoK=mux6u=f_b0yLb6nvJp41H7iPg7G+dLO5xT94kbDybjQ@mail.gmail.com> <a484ae6a-33d6-4704-8356-c0ed1e5ae376n@googlegroups.com> +In-Reply-To: <a484ae6a-33d6-4704-8356-c0ed1e5ae376n@googlegroups.com> +From: Dave Scotese <dscotese@litmocracy.com> +Date: Tue, 27 May 2025 16:10:07 -0700 +X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFvP0TUVkM1MQb3RE7Fb-W9_wiVxNYZ1XngR-pmtv9NFK07kU3hXFiSRmTE +Message-ID: <CAGLBAhc6QG5H5BXPg=Ny5dR563YwL+iB22+P=usam5Ev9F0TDg@mail.gmail.com> +Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Proposal to solve the spam war: configurable data + blob relay policy +To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000001e8290636262b0e" +X-Original-Sender: dscotese@litmocracy.com +X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass + (google.com: domain of dscotese@gmail.com designates 209.85.128.54 as + permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=dscotese@gmail.com +Precedence: list +Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com +List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com> +X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 +List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> +List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com> +List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev +List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com> +List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>, + <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe> +X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) + +--00000000000001e8290636262b0e +Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +As far as I can tell, the resource being wasted is the bandwidth of those +who are (currently kind enough to be) maintaining the network. They are +giving away that bandwidth for free, and I think they ought to be +compensated for it, but until enough of it is "wasted", the demand for such +compensation will remain too low for that problem to be solved. Everyone +who broadcasts a transaction offers the miners the chance to earn a fee, +and those miners seem to me to be the only ones with the right incentive to +solve the problem (because if it gets bad enough, they don't get valuable +bitcoin transactions to mine quickly enough). I believe that in time, +miners will develop a way of privately compensating transaction relayers +for this reason. I would very much enjoy seeing the propagation of data +grow as a market on its own in which nerds like me could participate simply +by leaving their internet-connected machines on all the time and +maintaining the software that runs it. + +Protecting Bitcoin from becoming that market and perhaps crowding out its +financial utility might not be such a good idea, but distributing Bitcoin +technology has vastly lowered the cost of financial transactions for +everyone. If we need two networks, one for stuff like what Citrea is doing +and the other for finance with a technological fence around it, I'm all for +it. Has Citrea heard of nostr? + +Dave Scotese + +On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 10:18=E2=80=AFAM Jonathan Voss <k98kurz@gmail.com> = +wrote: + +> My understanding is that Citrea is using a ZKP proof to recover from an +> invalid protocol state. Whatever data gets into the blockchain, the onus = +is +> on the Citrea-compatible nodes to do the actual validation -- Bitcoin +> itself has no part in this other than distributing the data. Adding a new +> relay service for promulgating data that is provably committed to in an +> OP_RETURN would not be a significant additional burden to the L2 protocol +> if this additional relay service is adopted by a sufficient proportion of +> nodes, and L2 protocol participants would have an incentive to run this n= +ew +> relay service for their own benefit, so they would likely already have th= +e +> data cached by the time the transaction is confirmed. I don't have any ha= +rd +> numbers on this, but my conjecture is that L2 protocols would run enough +> relays themselves for the system to be viable, and the clear segregation +> between arbitrary data ephemerally cached and monetary data permanently +> stored will be enough incentive for many node operators to also adopt it. +> +> On Tuesday, May 27, 2025 at 12:05:51=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4 Russell O'Connor wr= +ote: +> +>> On Sat, May 24, 2025 at 5:33=E2=80=AFPM Jonathan Voss <k98...@gmail.com>= + wrote: +>> +>>> However, the recent discussion premised upon Citrea's Clementine Bridge +>>> evidences primarily that the relaying capabilities of the Bitcoin netwo= +rk +>>> itself are sufficiently useful for L2 designers that there is an incent= +ive +>>> to bypass standardness restrictions for the sake of reliably promulgati= +ng +>>> data -- at least in the case of Citrea, they say they need to quickly a= +nd +>>> widely disseminate 140+ bytes of arbitrary ZKP data to recover from an +>>> invalid protocol state, and the utility of that ZKP data very quickly +>>> decreases after it has been confirmed and processed. +>> +>> +>> Does your proposal actually solve this problem? Posting the 140 bytes o= +f +>> data to the blockchain works as a public bulletin board because the actu= +al +>> data within the block is what is ultimately guaranteed to be disseminate= +d +>> to all participants. With your proposal, a transaction with an OP_RETUR= +N +>> containing a hash of data could end up being mined without the relevant +>> transaction ever even being relayed through the Bitcoin network. +>> +>> -- +> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups +> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. +> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an +> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. +> To view this discussion visit +> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/a484ae6a-33d6-4704-8356-c0ed= +1e5ae376n%40googlegroups.com +> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/a484ae6a-33d6-4704-8356-c0e= +d1e5ae376n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter> +> . +> + + +--=20 +I own Litmocracy <http://www.litmocracy.com> and Meme Racing +<http://www.memeracing.net> (in alpha). +I'm the webmaster for The Voluntaryist <http://www.voluntaryist.com> which +now accepts Bitcoin. +"He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules" - Satoshi +Nakamoto + +--=20 +You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= +Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. +To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= +mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. +To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= +CAGLBAhc6QG5H5BXPg%3DNy5dR563YwL%2BiB22%2BP%3Dusam5Ev9F0TDg%40mail.gmail.co= +m. + +--00000000000001e8290636262b0e +Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +<div dir=3D"ltr">As far as I can tell, the resource being wasted is the ban= +dwidth of those who are (currently kind enough=C2=A0to be) maintaining the = +network. They are giving away that bandwidth for free, and I think they oug= +ht to be compensated for it, but until enough of it is "wasted", = +the demand for such compensation will remain too low for that problem to be= + solved. Everyone who broadcasts a transaction offers the miners the chance= + to earn a fee, and those miners seem to me to be the only ones with the ri= +ght incentive to solve the problem (because if it gets bad enough, they don= +'t get valuable bitcoin transactions to mine quickly enough). I believe= + that in time, miners will develop=C2=A0a way of privately compensating tra= +nsaction relayers for this reason. I would very much enjoy seeing the propa= +gation of data grow as a market on its own in which nerds like me could par= +ticipate simply by leaving their internet-connected machines on all the tim= +e and maintaining the software that runs it.<div><br></div><div>Protecting = +Bitcoin from becoming that market and perhaps crowding out its financial ut= +ility might not be such a good idea, but distributing Bitcoin technology ha= +s vastly lowered the cost of financial transactions for everyone. If we nee= +d two networks, one for stuff like what Citrea is doing and the other for f= +inance with a technological fence around it, I'm all for it. Has Citrea= + heard of nostr?</div><div><br></div><div>Dave Scotese</div></div><br><div = +class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail= +_attr">On Tue, May 27, 2025 at 10:18=E2=80=AFAM Jonathan Voss <<a href= +=3D"mailto:k98kurz@gmail.com">k98kurz@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><bl= +ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-lef= +t:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">My understanding is that Cit= +rea is using a ZKP proof to recover from an invalid protocol state. Whateve= +r data gets into the blockchain, the onus is on the Citrea-compatible nodes= + to do the actual validation -- Bitcoin itself has no part in this other th= +an distributing the data. Adding a new relay service for promulgating data = +that is provably committed to in an OP_RETURN would not be a significant ad= +ditional burden to the L2 protocol if this additional relay service is adop= +ted by a sufficient proportion of nodes, and L2 protocol participants would= + have an incentive to run this new relay service for their own benefit, so = +they would likely already have the data cached by the time the transaction = +is confirmed. I don't have any hard numbers on this, but my conjecture = +is that L2 protocols would run enough relays themselves for the system to b= +e viable, and the clear segregation between arbitrary data ephemerally cach= +ed and monetary data permanently stored will be enough incentive for many n= +ode operators to also adopt it.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir= +=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tuesday, May 27, 2025 at 12:05:51=E2=80= +=AFPM UTC-4 Russell O'Connor wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail= +_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204= +,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gma= +il_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, May 24, 2025 at 5:3= +3=E2=80=AFPM Jonathan Voss <<a rel=3D"nofollow">k98...@gmail.com</a>>= + wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px = +0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">However,= + the recent discussion premised upon Citrea's Clementine Bridge evidenc= +es primarily that the relaying capabilities of the Bitcoin network itself a= +re sufficiently useful for L2 designers that there is an incentive to bypas= +s standardness restrictions for the sake of reliably promulgating data -- a= +t least in the case of Citrea, they say they need to quickly and widely dis= +seminate 140+ bytes of arbitrary ZKP data to recover from an invalid protoc= +ol state, and the utility of that ZKP data very quickly decreases after it = +has been confirmed and processed.</blockquote><div><br></div></div></div></= +div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">Does your = +proposal actually solve this problem?=C2=A0 Posting the 140 bytes of data t= +o the blockchain works as a public bulletin board because the actual data w= +ithin the block is what is ultimately guaranteed to be disseminated to all = +participants.=C2=A0 With your proposal, a transaction with an OP_RETURN con= +taining a hash of data could end up being mined without the relevant transa= +ction ever even being relayed through the Bitcoin network.</div><br></div> +</div> +</blockquote></div> + +<p></p> + +-- <br> +You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= +quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.<br> +To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= +mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target= +=3D"_blank">bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br> +To view this discussion visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= +bitcoindev/a484ae6a-33d6-4704-8356-c0ed1e5ae376n%40googlegroups.com?utm_med= +ium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.googl= +e.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/a484ae6a-33d6-4704-8356-c0ed1e5ae376n%40googlegrou= +ps.com</a>.<br> +</blockquote></div><div><br clear=3D"all"></div><div><br></div><span class= +=3D"gmail_signature_prefix">-- </span><br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_s= +ignature"><div dir=3D"ltr">I own <a href=3D"http://www.litmocracy.com" targ= +et=3D"_blank">Litmocracy</a> and <a href=3D"http://www.memeracing.net" targ= +et=3D"_blank">Meme Racing</a> (in alpha). <br>I'm the webmaster for <a = +href=3D"http://www.voluntaryist.com" target=3D"_blank">The Voluntaryist</a>= + which now accepts Bitcoin.<br>"He ought to find it more profitable to= + play by the rules" - Satoshi Nakamoto</div></div> + +<p></p> + +-- <br /> +You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= +quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.<br /> +To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= +mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">bitcoind= +ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br /> +To view this discussion visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= +bitcoindev/CAGLBAhc6QG5H5BXPg%3DNy5dR563YwL%2BiB22%2BP%3Dusam5Ev9F0TDg%40ma= +il.gmail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.= +com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAGLBAhc6QG5H5BXPg%3DNy5dR563YwL%2BiB22%2BP%3Dusam5E= +v9F0TDg%40mail.gmail.com</a>.<br /> + +--00000000000001e8290636262b0e-- + |