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| author | ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com> | 2021-09-07 09:37:43 +0000 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2021-09-07 09:37:53 +0000 |
| commit | 6d1c59cdb7abaee1131a2587fac0889c1bd37c74 (patch) | |
| tree | 55044696ca6b5c8db13487ce4a98f0c603da5358 | |
| parent | 844166868c3f692b0d971ddc5fe4c00e5b874a67 (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-6d1c59cdb7abaee1131a2587fac0889c1bd37c74.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-6d1c59cdb7abaee1131a2587fac0889c1bd37c74.zip | |
Re: [bitcoin-dev] Drivechain: BIP 300 and 301
| -rw-r--r-- | 81/c5b3e5d041c30d1746575a9aa35cacafbfc630 | 153 |
1 files changed, 153 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/81/c5b3e5d041c30d1746575a9aa35cacafbfc630 b/81/c5b3e5d041c30d1746575a9aa35cacafbfc630 new file mode 100644 index 000000000..86bb6cbf1 --- /dev/null +++ b/81/c5b3e5d041c30d1746575a9aa35cacafbfc630 @@ -0,0 +1,153 @@ +Return-Path: <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com> +Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [140.211.166.133]) + by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 550AFC000D + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:37:53 +0000 (UTC) +Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) + by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 366D8401E9 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:37:53 +0000 (UTC) +X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org +X-Spam-Flag: NO +X-Spam-Score: 1.598 +X-Spam-Level: * +X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 + tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, + DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, + FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, + SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URI_NOVOWEL=0.5] + autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no +Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); + dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=protonmail.com +Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) + by localhost (smtp2.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) + with ESMTP id irIxxZFSenJE + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:37:52 +0000 (UTC) +X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 +Received: from mail-4324.protonmail.ch (mail-4324.protonmail.ch [185.70.43.24]) + by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DBCE040119 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:37:51 +0000 (UTC) +Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 09:37:43 +0000 +DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; + s=protonmail; t=1631007468; + bh=z+dbLDfu8PycHsv+M5IwckNKHG05NtfNjjXC/sRW4Sw=; + h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; + b=GXY4XUvhXjcVGRrkHl9EUNT0r48+4bc2k4aKwgqo859874oHUx7Ep3rHKspC1w7o2 + Us7vvZO+BioeB8OhyaazzCopNenAmrBPZudQlyMBwSJXkW3iF0li2tXbyoyQvOIiFB + sqFPHlSXmvl4tVvg3FZqySbBjdLGNTx2Yunr9qy0= +To: Prayank <prayank@tutanota.de> +From: ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com> +Reply-To: ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com> +Message-ID: <fUQB1iJaia8hKE2X25B7MeBnqn78XEHzRBXO8OiZ4VIFwyk5TMBqyAgeZumeScl1jcKFS0nGW79Rkd7HqhIcB7-11Bw7jPS_ZNBGjXx-Q4s=@protonmail.com> +In-Reply-To: <Mif2dMR--3-2@tutanota.de> +References: <MibU_fn--3-2@tutanota.de> + <3dyAATLXbsE7WBzpVIc0s4sRkSFhR_5NN04uUgx3o9LH48IKR6EHL3V45PfpRM96yxHXdsjd7WC7MGuPlBw7MRpCkpXRsB-WI7i3-Nr13Ew=@protonmail.com> + <Mif2dMR--3-2@tutanota.de> +MIME-Version: 1.0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Drivechain: BIP 300 and 301 +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2021 09:37:53 -0000 + +Good morning Prayank, + + +> Thanks for sharing all the details. One thing that I am not sure about: +> +> >=C2=A0* We already ***know*** that blockchains cannot scale +> > * Your plan for scaling is to make ***more*** blockchains? +> +> Scaling Bitcoin can be different from scaling Bitcoin sidechains. You can= + experiment with lot of things on sidechains to scale which isn't true for = +Bitcoin. + +I would classify this as "prototyping new features" (i.e. it just happens t= +o be a feature that theoretically improves blockchain scaling, with the sid= +echain as a demonstration and the goal eventually to get something like it = +into Bitcoin blockchain proper), not really scaling-by-sidechains/shards, s= +o I think this is a fine example of "just make a federated sidechain" solut= +ion for the prototyping bit. + +Do note that the above idea is a kernel for the argument that Drivechains s= +imply allow for miner-controlled block size increases, an argument I have s= +een elsewhere but have no good links for, so take it is hearsay. + +> Most important thing is requirements for running a node differ. Its easy = +to run a node for LN, Liquid and Rootstock right now. Will it remain the sa= +me? I am not sure. +> +> LND:=C2=A0https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/blob/master/docs/INSTAL= +L.md +> +> Liquid:=C2=A0https://help.blockstream.com/hc/en-us/articles/900002026026-= +How-do-I-set-up-a-Liquid-node- +> +> Rootstock:=C2=A0https://developers.rsk.co/rsk/node/install/ + +LN will likely remain easy to install and maintain, especially if you use C= +-Lightning and CLBOSS *cough*. + +> >=C2=A0More to the point: what are sidechains **for**? +> +> Smart contracts are possible on Bitcoin but with limited functionality so= + lot of applications are not possible using Bitcoin (Layer1). Some of these= + don't even make sense on Layer 1 and create other issues like MEV however = +deploying them on sidechains should not affect base layer. + +Key being "should" --- as noted, part of the Drivechains security argument = +from Paul Sztorc is that a nuclear option can be deployed, which *possibly*= + means that issues in the sidechain may infect the mainchain. + +Also see stuff like "smart contracts unchained": https://zmnscpxj.github.io= +/bitcoin/unchained.html +This allows creation of small federations which are *not* coordinated via i= +nefficient blockchain structures. + +So, really, my main point is: before going for the big heavy blockchain ham= +mer, maybe other constructions are possible for any specific application? + +> +> >=C2=A0Increasing the Drivechain security parameter leads to slower sidec= +hain->mainchin withdrawals, effectively a bottleneck on how much can be tra= +nsferred sidechain->mainchain. +> +> I think 'withdrawals' is the part which can be improved in Drivechain. No= +t sure about any solution at this point or trade-offs involved but making f= +ew changes can help Drivechain and Bitcoin. + +It is precisely due to the fact that the mainchain cannot validate the side= +chain rules, that side->main transfers must be bottlenecked, so that sidech= +ain miners have an opportunity to gainsay any theft attempts that violate t= +he sidechain rules. +Consider a similar parameter in Lightning when exiting non-cooperatively fr= +om a channel, which allows the other side to gainsay any theft attempts, a = +parameter which will still exist even in Decker-Russell-Osuntokun. + +This parameter existed even in the old Blockstream sidechains proposal from= + sipa et al. +For the old Blockstream proposal the parameter is measured in sidechain blo= +cks, and the sidechain has its own miners instead of riding off mainchain, = +but ultimately there exists a parameter that restricts the rate at which si= +de->main transfers can be performed. + +At least LN does not require any changes at the base layer (at least not an= +ymore, after SegWit). + +Regards, +ZmnSCPxj + + |