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| author | Tamas Blummer <tamas.blummer@gmail.com> | 2019-07-02 07:08:53 +0200 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2019-07-02 05:08:52 +0000 |
| commit | 57bd89b3b3d8c7db2215e5a406566da80afde445 (patch) | |
| tree | 0be33c5e88194538b54982faf44bbfb63f225ee7 | |
| parent | e7ec3a5d6a342a3f5406b911e5d8e5ade7a6e8db (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-57bd89b3b3d8c7db2215e5a406566da80afde445.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-57bd89b3b3d8c7db2215e5a406566da80afde445.zip | |
Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized covenants with taproot enable riskless or risky lending, prevent credit inflation through fractional reserve
| -rw-r--r-- | e8/7aff92757e8f8b1ac389e07408634a3724ef53 | 318 |
1 files changed, 318 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/e8/7aff92757e8f8b1ac389e07408634a3724ef53 b/e8/7aff92757e8f8b1ac389e07408634a3724ef53 new file mode 100644 index 000000000..7c7879c7c --- /dev/null +++ b/e8/7aff92757e8f8b1ac389e07408634a3724ef53 @@ -0,0 +1,318 @@ +Return-Path: <tamas.blummer@gmail.com> +Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org + [172.17.192.35]) + by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4DC012F5 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Tue, 2 Jul 2019 05:08:52 +0000 (UTC) +X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 +Received: from mail-wr1-f49.google.com (mail-wr1-f49.google.com + [209.85.221.49]) + by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E1CE770D + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Tue, 2 Jul 2019 05:08:51 +0000 (UTC) +Received: by mail-wr1-f49.google.com with SMTP id v14so16130974wrr.4 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Mon, 01 Jul 2019 22:08:51 -0700 (PDT) +DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; 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+ Mon, 01 Jul 2019 22:08:50 -0700 (PDT) +Received: from p200300dd6712642569ab198ddd49c683.dip0.t-ipconnect.de + (p200300DD6712642569AB198DDD49C683.dip0.t-ipconnect.de. + [2003:dd:6712:6425:69ab:198d:dd49:c683]) + by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id + x17sm8764072wrq.64.2019.07.01.22.08.48 + (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); + Mon, 01 Jul 2019 22:08:49 -0700 (PDT) +From: Tamas Blummer <tamas.blummer@gmail.com> +Message-Id: <A64C3DCB-10CE-45EA-9A1B-7E3D13DF90EA@gmail.com> +Content-Type: multipart/signed; + boundary="Apple-Mail=_C3D4EEED-8935-4ACC-8A34-31B704673CB0"; + protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 +Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) +Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 07:08:53 +0200 +In-Reply-To: <E72C4A8E-F850-400B-B19B-7D06B8A169EC@voskuil.org> +To: Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org> +References: <0DBC0DEA-C999-4AEE-B2E1-D5337ECD9405@gmail.com> + <7A10C0F5-E206-43C1-853F-64AE04F57711@voskuil.org> + <EB743E28-8486-4CD5-B9AE-09B5693B27FA@gmail.com> + <708D14A9-D25E-4DD2-8B6E-39A1194A7A00@voskuil.org> + <1A808C88-63FD-4F45-8C95-2B8B4D99EDF5@gmail.com> + <83705370-79FC-4006-BA04-4782AD5BE70B@voskuil.org> + <BF027CD0-FE29-4DD1-AB96-DE92B597AD18@gmail.com> + <3F46CDD5-DA80-49C8-A51F-8066680EF347@voskuil.org> + <A4A6099F-F115-4CBF-B7D5-F16581476126@gmail.com> + <063D7C06-F5D8-425B-80CE-CAE03A1AAD0C@voskuil.org> + <0AA10217-E1CC-46D1-9B43-038CEEF942CD@gmail.com> + <E72C4A8E-F850-400B-B19B-7D06B8A169EC@voskuil.org> +X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) +X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, + DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE, + RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 +X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on + smtp1.linux-foundation.org +X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 08:59:10 +0000 +Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized covenants with taproot enable + riskless or risky lending, + prevent credit inflation through fractional reserve +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 05:08:53 -0000 + + +--Apple-Mail=_C3D4EEED-8935-4ACC-8A34-31B704673CB0 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset=utf-8 + + +> On Jul 1, 2019, at 20:52, Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org> wrote: +>=20 +> I said that I would make no further comment given the belief that no = +new ideas were surfacing. However, after giving it some more thought on = +my own, I believe I have found the one case in which a person could = +value such encumbered coins. +>=20 +> In the case of tracking an asset that becomes worthless at a specific = +time, one could value a record of ownership, and the ability to trade = +ownership of the asset during the period. Consider colored coin type = +tracking of a theater ticket for a specific show, where the ticket is = +worthless by the end of the show. +>=20 + + +In other words you now see the utility of a register offered by UTXOs = +that are only temporary availability to current owner. If there is a = +utility there is also a value in it for them. +I am glad we are on the same side on this utility and thanks to you and = +ZmnSCPxj we now have two additional uses cases for UTXOs that are only = +temporarily accessible to their current owner. + +Since ZmnSCPxj also raised the question if covenants are needed at all, = +let me continue my thoughts on this in reply to his mail. + +Tamas Blummer + +>=20 +>=20 +>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 13:26, Tamas Blummer <tamas.blummer@gmail.com> = +wrote: +>>=20 +>> My argument does not need the comparison with ICOs. +>>=20 +>> They were just an example that people pay for the utility of register = +even though others think the tokens they keep track of are worthless. +>>=20 +>> Tamas Blummer +>>=20 +>>=20 +>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 22:13, Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org> wrote: +>>>=20 +>>> ICO tokens can be traded (indefinitely) for other things of value, = +so the comparison isn=E2=80=99t valid. I think we=E2=80=99ve both made = +our points clearly, so I=E2=80=99ll leave it at that. +>>>=20 +>>> Best, +>>> Eric +>>>=20 +>>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 12:55, Tamas Blummer <tamas.blummer@gmail.com> = +wrote: +>>>>=20 +>>>>=20 +>>>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 20:54, Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org> wrote: +>>>>>=20 +>>>>> Could you please explain the meaning and utility of =E2=80=9Cunforge= +able register=E2=80=9D as it pertains to such encumbered coins? +>>>>=20 +>>>> I guess we agree that some way of keeping track of ownership is = +prerequisite for something to aquire value. +>>>> We likely also agree that the security of that ownership register = +has great influence to the value. +>>>>=20 +>>>> The question remains if a register as utility in itself gives value = +to the thing needed to use that register. +>>>> I think it does, if people are interested in what it keeps track = +of, for whatever reason, even for reasons you find bogus. +>>>>=20 +>>>> It was not intentional, but I think I just explained why Ethereum = +aquired higher market value by being register of ICO tokens. +>>>>=20 +>>>> Now back to the coins encumbered with the debt covenant: +>>>> Transactions moving them constitute a register of covered debt and = +you need them to update that register. +>>>> Should some people find such a register useful then those coins = +needed to update this register will aquire value. +>>>> Does not matter if you think the concept of covered debt is just as = +bogus as ICOs. +>>>>=20 +>>>> Here some good news: If they aquire value then they offer a way to = +generate income for hodler by temporarily giving up control. +>>>>=20 +>>>> Tamas Blummer +>>>>=20 +>>>>>=20 +>>>>> The meaning in terms of Bitcoin is clear - the =E2=80=9Cowner=E2=80=9D= + of outputs that represent value (i.e. in the ability to trade them for = +something else) is recorded publicly and, given Bitcoin security = +assumptions, cannot be faked. What is not clear is the utility of a = +record of outputs that cannot be traded for something else. You seem to = +imply that a record is valuable simply because it=E2=80=99s a record. +>>>>>=20 +>>>>> e +>>>>>=20 +>>>>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 11:35, Tamas Blummer = +<tamas.blummer@gmail.com> wrote: +>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 19:41, Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org> = +wrote: +>>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 03:56, Tamas Blummer = +<tamas.blummer@gmail.com> wrote: +>>>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>>>> Hi Eric, +>>>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>>>>> On Jun 29, 2019, at 23:21, Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org> = +wrote: +>>>>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>>>>> What loan? Alice has paid Bob for something of no possible = +utility to her, or anyone else. +>>>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>>>> Coins encumbered with the described covenant represent = +temporary control of a scarce resource. +>>>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>>>> Can this obtain value? That depends on the availability of = +final control and ability to deal with temporary control. +>>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>>> For something to become property (and therefore have marketable = +value) requires that it be both scarce and useful. Bitcoin is useful = +only to the extent that it can be traded for something else that is = +useful. Above you are only dealing with scarcity, ignoring utility. +>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>> There is a deeper utility of Bitcoin than it can be traded for = +something else. That utility is to use its unforgeable register. +>>>>>> We have only one kind of units in this register and by having = +covenants we would create other kinds that are while encumbered not = +fungible with the common ones. +>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>> Units are certainly less desirable if encumbered with a debt = +covenant. You say no one would assign them any value. +>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>> I am not that sure as they still offer the utility of using the = +unforgeable register, in this case a register of debt covered by = +reserves. +>>>>>> You also doubt forcing debt to be covered by reserves is a good = +idea, I got that, but suppose we do not discuss this here. +>>>>>> If there are people who think it is a good idea, then they would = +find having an unforgeable register of it useful and therefore units = +needed to maintain that register valuable to some extent. +>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>>>> I think you do not show the neccesary respect of the market. +>>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>>> I=E2=80=99m not sure what is meant here by respect, or how much = +of it is necessary. I am merely explaining the market. +>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>> You are not explaining an existing market but claim that market = +that is not yet there will follow your arguments. +>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>>>> Your rant reminds me of renowed economists who still argue = +final control Bitcoin can not have value, you do the same proclaiming = +that temporary control of Bitcoin can not have value. +>>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>>> It seems to me you have reversed the meaning of temporary and = +final. Bitcoin is useful because of the presumption that there is no = +finality of control. One presumes an ability to trade control of it for = +something else. This is temporary control. Final control would be the = +case in which, at some point, it can no longer be traded, making it = +worthless at that point. If this is known to be the case it implies that = +it it worthless at all prior points as well. +>>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>>> These are distinct scenarios. The fact that temporary (in my = +usage) control implies the possibility of value does not imply that = +finality of control does as well. The fact that (renowned or otherwise) = +people have made errors does not imply that I am making an error. These = +are both non-sequiturs. +>>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>>>> I say, that temporary control does not have value until means = +dealing with it are offered, and that is I work on. Thereafter might = +obtain value if final control is deemed too expensive or not attainable, = +we shall see. +>>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>>> The analogy to rental of a consumable good does not apply to the = +case of a non-consumable good. If it cannot be traded and cannot be = +consumed it cannot obtain marketable value. To this point it matters not = +whether it exists. +>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>> I meant with control the control of entries in the register which = +I think is the deeper utility of Bitcoin. Final control is meant to be = +the opposite of temporary which is the time limited control with some = +expiry. +>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>> Thank you for your thoughts as they help to sharpen my arguments. +>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>> Best, +>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>> Tamas Blummer +>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>>> Best, +>>>>>>> Eric +>>>>>>>=20 +>>>>>>>> Tamas Blummer +>>=20 + + +--Apple-Mail=_C3D4EEED-8935-4ACC-8A34-31B704673CB0 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +Content-Disposition: attachment; + filename=signature.asc +Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; + name=signature.asc +Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP + +-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- + +iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEE6YNJViYMM6Iv5f9e9nKRxRdxORwFAl0a5uUACgkQ9nKRxRdx +ORx1EAgAiWDRig/I4Q9GoDufMyKJV1RaW/NvGNcwbuJ4Swt1duIinXTmuepH4x8U +rcaRTje8cuvFtFE//GFKaADbuXBoF0PaAZnfqwZ8fao0ZWzEGc65jnpw0D1FjIOK +iPjjAo4odQvoDvPxkJMFwGT9PiSL5nnCTS0h5rh9Qp04am5QXZyNQoLPQmccoaJf +9ht0cgLwaRTHsItvh3LAn56wE8BTnsFxwA5fkUwt3tTfwNLFaa/lL3fgsQuvkHFD +GRI/CXAm66IiW4IAakw0CJL8Y36Ge2ApojaGHC7khncQnEDVkO4tu02Ptx4WXjnS +MUes1M9zlcMGBCC+KdRIiu0cMMlpmg== +=CO+H +-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- + +--Apple-Mail=_C3D4EEED-8935-4ACC-8A34-31B704673CB0-- + |