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authorEric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com>2015-08-15 15:16:10 -0700
committerbitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org>2015-08-15 22:16:37 +0000
commit34a0fbc3f00c1b571af1ebea86c7168069610e53 (patch)
treea379c034f0af34795a7a2e572f88eeeeddf47318
parent87e422fcfa1c23dacd8ea66fe445ffaf0f28ce89 (diff)
downloadpi-bitcoindev-34a0fbc3f00c1b571af1ebea86c7168069610e53.tar.gz
pi-bitcoindev-34a0fbc3f00c1b571af1ebea86c7168069610e53.zip
Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin XT 0.11A
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+From: Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com>
+In-Reply-To: <CAKujSOFNHNngt0HV=B3YHxOwXksk+JZDaHt+mUVniwMPTM6SaA@mail.gmail.com>
+Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 15:16:10 -0700
+Message-Id: <CC1B6D0E-F9D5-422B-980D-C589CDC00612@gmail.com>
+References: <CA+w+GKT7t5OahS-+P=QAmOyFzPnOs4J6KSo+mhSrC0YggmMupg@mail.gmail.com>
+ <E7866FD5-9CEC-400F-8270-407499E0B012@gmail.com>
+ <CAKujSOFNHNngt0HV=B3YHxOwXksk+JZDaHt+mUVniwMPTM6SaA@mail.gmail.com>
+To: Ken Friece <kfriece@gmail.com>
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+Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
+Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin XT 0.11A
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+
+> On Aug 15, 2015, at 3:01 PM, Ken Friece via bitcoin-dev =
+<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
+>=20
+> What are you so afraid of, Eric? If Mike's fork is successful, =
+consensus is reached around larger blocks. If it is rejected, the status =
+quo will remain for now. Network consensus, NOT CORE DEVELOPER =
+CONSENSUS, is the only thing that matters, and those that go against =
+network consensus will be severely punished with complete loss of =
+income.
+
+I fully agree that core developers are not the only people who should =
+have a say in this. But again, we=E2=80=99re not talking about merely =
+forking some open source project - we=E2=80=99re talking about forking a =
+ledger representing real assets that real people are holding=E2=80=A6and =
+I think it=E2=80=99s fair to say that the risk of permanent ledger forks =
+far outweighs whatever benefits any change in the protocol might bring. =
+And this would be true even if there were unanimous agreement that the =
+change is good (which there clearly IS NOT in this case) but the =
+deployment mechanism could still break things.
+
+If anything we should attempt a hard fork with a less contentious change =
+first, just to test deployability.
+
+> I'm not sure who appointed the core devs some sort of Bitcoin Gods =
+that can hold up any change that they happen to disagree with. It seems =
+like the core devs are scared to death that the bitcoin network may =
+change without their blessing, so they go on and on about how terrible =
+hard forks are. Hard forks are the only way to keep core devs in check.
+
+Again, let=E2=80=99s figure out a hard fork mechanism and test it with a =
+far less contentious change first
+
+> Despite significant past technical bitcoin achievements, two of the =
+most vocal opponents to a reasonable blocksize increase work for a =
+company (Blockstream) that stands to profit directly from artificially =
+limiting the blocksize. The whole situation reeks. Because of such a =
+blatant conflict of interest, the ethical thing to do would be for them =
+to either resign from Blockstream or immediately withdraw themselves =
+from the blocksize debate. This is the type of stuff that I hoped would =
+end with Bitcoin, but alas, I guess human nature never changes.
+
+For the record, I do not work for Blockstream. Neither do a bunch of =
+other people who have published a number of concerns. Very few of the =
+concerns I=E2=80=99ve seen from the technical community seem to be =
+motivated primarily by profit motives.
+
+It should also be pointed out that *not* making drastic changes is the =
+default consensus policy=E2=80=A6and the burden of justifying a change =
+falls on those who want to make the change. Again, the risk of permanent =
+ledger forks far outweighs whatever benefits protocol changes might =
+bring.
+
+> Personally, I think miners should give Bitcoin XT a serious look. =
+Miners need to realize that they are in direct competition with the =
+lightning network and sidechains for fees. Miners, ask yourselves if you =
+think you'll earn more fees with 1 MB blocks and more off-chain =
+transactions or with 8 MB blocks and more on-chain transactions=E2=80=A6
+
+Miners are NOT in direct competition with the lightning network and =
+sidechains - these claims are patently false. I recommend you take a =
+look at these ideas and understand them a little better before trying to =
+make any such claims. Again, I do not work for Blockstream=E2=80=A6and =
+my agenda in this post is not to promote either of these ideas=E2=80=A6but=
+ with all due respect, I do not think you properly understand them at =
+all.
+
+> The longer this debate drags on, the more I agree with BIP 100 and =
+Jeff Garzik because the core devs are already being influenced by =
+outside forces and should not have complete control of the blocksize. =
+It's also interesting to note that most of the mining hashpower is =
+already voting for 8MB blocks BIP100 style.
+
+I don=E2=80=99t think the concern here is so much that some people want =
+to increase block size. It=E2=80=99s the *way* in which this change is =
+being pushed that is deeply problematic.
+
+> On Sat, Aug 15, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev =
+<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
+<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
+> You deeply disappoint me, Mike.
+>=20
+> Not only do you misrepresent many cogent, well thought out positions =
+from a great number of people who have published and posted a number of =
+articles detailing an explaining in-depth technical concerns=E2=80=A6you =
+also seem to fancy yourself more capable of reading into the intentions =
+of someone who disappeared from the scene years ago, before we even were =
+fully aware of many things we now know that bring the original =
+=E2=80=9Cplan=E2=80=9D into question.
+>=20
+> I ask of you, as a civilized human being, to stop doing this divisive =
+crap. Despite your protestations to the contrary, YOU are the one who is =
+proposing a radical departure from the direction of the project. Also, =
+as several of us have clearly stated before, equating the fork of an =
+open source project with a fork of a cryptoledger is completely bogus - =
+there=E2=80=99s a lot of other people=E2=80=99s money at stake. This =
+isn=E2=80=99t a democracy - consensus is all or nothing. The fact that a =
+good number of the people most intimately familiar with the inner =
+workings of Satoshi=E2=80=99s invention do not believe doing this is a =
+good idea should give you pause.
+>=20
+> Please stop using Bitcoin as your own political football=E2=80=A6for =
+the sake of Bitcoin=E2=80=A6and for your own sake. Despite your obvious =
+technical abilities (and I sincerely do believe you have them) you are =
+discrediting yourself and hurting your own reputation.
+>=20
+>=20
+> - Eric
+>=20
+>> On Aug 15, 2015, at 10:02 AM, Mike Hearn via bitcoin-dev =
+<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
+<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
+>>=20
+>> Hello,
+>>=20
+>> As promised, we have released Bitcoin XT 0.11A which includes the =
+bigger blocks patch set. You can get it from
+>>=20
+>> https://bitcoinxt.software/ <https://bitcoinxt.software/>
+>>=20
+>> I feel sad that it's come to this, but there is no other way. The =
+Bitcoin Core project has drifted so far from the principles myself and =
+many others feel are important, that a fork is the only way to fix =
+things.
+>>=20
+>> Forking is a natural thing in the open source community, Bitcoin is =
+not the first and won't be the last project to go through this. Often in =
+forks, people say there was insufficient communication. So to ensure =
+everything is crystal clear I've written a blog post and a kind of =
+"manifesto" to describe why this is happening and how XT plans to be =
+different from Core (assuming adoption, of course).
+>>=20
+>> The article is here:
+>>=20
+>> =
+https://medium.com/@octskyward/why-is-bitcoin-forking-d647312d22c1 =
+<https://medium.com/@octskyward/why-is-bitcoin-forking-d647312d22c1>
+>>=20
+>> It makes no attempt to be neutral: this explains things from our =
+point of view.
+>>=20
+>> The manifesto is on the website.
+>>=20
+>> I say to all developers on this list: if you also feel that Core is =
+no longer serving the interests of Bitcoin users, come join us. We don't =
+bite.
+>>=20
+>> _______________________________________________
+>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
+>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
+<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
+>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev =
+<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>
+>=20
+>=20
+> _______________________________________________
+> bitcoin-dev mailing list
+> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
+<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
+> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev =
+<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>
+>=20
+>=20
+> _______________________________________________
+> bitcoin-dev mailing list
+> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
+> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
+
+
+--Apple-Mail=_6D2C2DA3-B5B0-489D-BBBD-9A1B81F9AAF7
+Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+Content-Type: text/html;
+ charset=utf-8
+
+<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
+charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
+-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
+class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
+class=3D"">On Aug 15, 2015, at 3:01 PM, Ken Friece via bitcoin-dev =
+&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
+class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
+class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
+class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">What are you so afraid of, =
+Eric? If Mike's fork is successful, consensus is reached around larger =
+blocks. If it is rejected, the status quo will remain for now. Network =
+consensus, NOT CORE DEVELOPER CONSENSUS, is the only thing that matters, =
+and those that go against network consensus will be severely punished =
+with complete loss of income.<br =
+class=3D""></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
+class=3D""></div>I fully agree that core developers are not the only =
+people who should have a say in this. But again, we=E2=80=99re not =
+talking about merely forking some open source project - we=E2=80=99re =
+talking about forking a ledger representing real assets that real people =
+are holding=E2=80=A6and I think it=E2=80=99s fair to say that the risk =
+of permanent ledger forks far outweighs whatever benefits any change in =
+the protocol might bring. And this would be true even if there were =
+unanimous agreement that the change is good (which there clearly IS NOT =
+in this case) but the deployment mechanism could still break =
+things.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>If anything we should =
+attempt a hard fork with a less contentious change first, just to test =
+deployability.</div><div><div><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
+type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
+class=3D""><div class=3D"">I'm not sure who appointed the core devs some =
+sort of Bitcoin Gods that can hold up any change that they happen to =
+disagree with. It seems like the core devs are scared to death that the =
+bitcoin network may change without their blessing, so they go on and on =
+about how terrible hard forks are. Hard forks are the only way to keep =
+core devs in check.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
+class=3D""></div><div>Again, let=E2=80=99s figure out a hard fork =
+mechanism and test it with a far less contentious change first</div><br =
+class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
+dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Despite significant past =
+technical bitcoin achievements, two of the most vocal opponents to a =
+reasonable blocksize increase work for a company (Blockstream) that =
+stands to profit directly from artificially limiting the blocksize. The =
+whole situation reeks. Because of such a blatant conflict of interest, =
+the ethical thing to do would be for them to either resign from =
+Blockstream or immediately withdraw themselves from the blocksize =
+debate. This is the type of stuff that I hoped would end with Bitcoin, =
+but alas, I guess human nature never changes.<br =
+class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
+class=3D""></div><div>For the record, I do not work for Blockstream. =
+Neither do a bunch of other people who have published a number of =
+concerns. Very few of the concerns I=E2=80=99ve seen from the technical =
+community seem to be motivated primarily by profit =
+motives.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>It should also be pointed =
+out that *not* making drastic changes is the default consensus =
+policy=E2=80=A6and the burden of justifying a change falls on those who =
+want to make the change. Again, the risk of permanent ledger forks far =
+outweighs whatever benefits protocol changes might bring.</div><br =
+class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
+dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Personally, I think miners should =
+give Bitcoin XT a serious look. Miners need to realize that they are in =
+direct competition with the lightning network and sidechains for fees. =
+Miners, ask yourselves if you think you'll earn more fees with 1 MB =
+blocks and more off-chain transactions or with 8 MB blocks and more =
+on-chain transactions=E2=80=A6<br =
+class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Miners=
+ are NOT in direct competition with the lightning network and sidechains =
+- these claims are patently false. I recommend you take a look at these =
+ideas and understand them a little better before trying to make any such =
+claims. Again, I do not work for Blockstream=E2=80=A6and my agenda in =
+this post is not to promote either of these ideas=E2=80=A6but with all =
+due respect, I do not think you properly understand them at all.<br =
+class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
+class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">The longer this =
+debate drags on, the more I agree with BIP 100 and Jeff Garzik because =
+the core devs are already being influenced by outside forces and should =
+not have complete control of the blocksize. It's also interesting to =
+note that most of the mining hashpower is already voting for 8MB blocks =
+BIP100 style. &nbsp;</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
+class=3D""></div>I don=E2=80=99t think the concern here is so much that =
+some people want to increase block size. It=E2=80=99s the *way* in which =
+this change is being pushed that is deeply problematic.</div><div><br =
+class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
+dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
+class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, =
+Aug 15, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Eric Lombrozo via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr" =
+class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
+target=3D"_blank" =
+class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;</span> =
+wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
+0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
+style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D"">You deeply =
+disappoint me, Mike.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
+class=3D"">Not only do you misrepresent many cogent, well thought out =
+positions from a great number of people who have published and posted a =
+number of articles detailing an explaining in-depth technical =
+concerns=E2=80=A6you also seem to fancy yourself more capable of reading =
+into the intentions of someone who disappeared from the scene years ago, =
+before we even were fully aware of many things we now know that bring =
+the original =E2=80=9Cplan=E2=80=9D into question.</div><div =
+class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I ask of you, as a =
+civilized human being, to stop doing this divisive crap. Despite your =
+protestations to the contrary, YOU are the one who is proposing a =
+radical departure from the direction of the project. Also, as several of =
+us have clearly stated before, equating the fork of an open source =
+project with a fork of a cryptoledger is completely bogus - there=E2=80=99=
+s a lot of other people=E2=80=99s money at stake. This isn=E2=80=99t a =
+democracy - consensus is all or nothing. The fact that a good number of =
+the people most intimately familiar with the inner workings of =
+Satoshi=E2=80=99s invention do not believe doing this is a good idea =
+should give you pause.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
+class=3D"">Please stop using Bitcoin as your own political =
+football=E2=80=A6for the sake of Bitcoin=E2=80=A6and for your own sake. =
+Despite your obvious technical abilities (and I sincerely do believe you =
+have them) you are discrediting yourself and hurting your own =
+reputation.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
+class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- Eric</div><div class=3D""><br =
+class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
+ class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 15, 2015, at 10:02 AM, Mike Hearn via =
+bitcoin-dev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
+target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;=
+ wrote:</div><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
+class=3D"">Hello,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">As =
+promised, we have released Bitcoin XT 0.11A which includes the bigger =
+blocks patch set. You can get it from</div><div class=3D""><br =
+class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<a =
+href=3D"https://bitcoinxt.software/" target=3D"_blank" =
+class=3D"">https://bitcoinxt.software/</a><br class=3D""></div><div =
+class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I feel sad that it's =
+come to this, but there is no other way. The Bitcoin Core project has =
+drifted so far from the principles myself and many others feel are =
+important, that a fork is the only way to fix things.</div><div =
+class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Forking is a natural =
+thing in the open source community, Bitcoin is not the first and won't =
+be the last project to go through this. Often in forks, people say there =
+was insufficient communication. So to ensure everything is crystal clear =
+I've written a blog post and a kind of "manifesto" to describe why this =
+is happening and how XT plans to be different from Core (assuming =
+adoption, of course).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
+class=3D"">The article is here:</div><div class=3D""><br =
+class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; <a =
+href=3D"https://medium.com/@octskyward/why-is-bitcoin-forking-d647312d22c1=
+" target=3D"_blank" =
+class=3D"">https://medium.com/@octskyward/why-is-bitcoin-forking-d647312d2=
+2c1</a><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
+class=3D"">It makes no attempt to be neutral: this explains things from =
+our point of view.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
+class=3D"">The manifesto is on the website.</div><div class=3D""><br =
+class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I say to all developers on this list: =
+if you also feel that Core is no longer serving the interests of Bitcoin =
+users, come join us. We don't bite.</div><div class=3D""><br =
+class=3D""></div></div>
+_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">bitcoin-dev =
+mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
+href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank" =
+class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br class=3D""><a =
+href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" =
+target=3D"_blank" =
+class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<=
+/a><br class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div><br =
+class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
+bitcoin-dev mailing list<br class=3D"">
+<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
+class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br class=3D"">
+<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev"=
+ rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
+class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<=
+/a><br class=3D"">
+<br class=3D""></blockquote></div><br =
+class=3D""></div></div></div></div></div>
+_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">bitcoin-dev =
+mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
+href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
+class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br =
+class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<=
+br class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=
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