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| author | Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com> | 2025-04-27 18:49:49 -0400 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> | 2025-04-27 15:54:55 -0700 |
| commit | 347897d715e86a60b285e3f27ca28a01f79ffd8d (patch) | |
| tree | 720f5125964ebd1729edd9bddb7fe22afc939cdd | |
| parent | a61e463bcf423b29c41031c0b6fb30f508648ed7 (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-347897d715e86a60b285e3f27ca28a01f79ffd8d.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-347897d715e86a60b285e3f27ca28a01f79ffd8d.zip | |
Re: [bitcoindev] Unbreaking testnet4
| -rw-r--r-- | fb/105b8d7a35a8539ed2fa6ae83b15a2053c910e | 458 |
1 files changed, 458 insertions, 0 deletions
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[2a00:1450:4864:20::136]) + by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5b1f17b1804b1-4408d03fd7csi5620195e9.1.2025.04.27.15.50.03 + for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> + (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); + Sun, 27 Apr 2025 15:50:03 -0700 (PDT) +Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jameson.lopp@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::136 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::136; +Received: by mail-lf1-x136.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-54e98f73850so267995e87.1 + for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>; Sun, 27 Apr 2025 15:50:03 -0700 (PDT) +X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctApH4H2FT03DUnPrt/B0BIl3ihnmuAaYpLjYBoqPTnTzosTFBxVn3TZ34I7re + mqeMjoXo3Ln2Su/3i5ascup9+v1PH9QveIGpIEenmcQkat49HKbDfjm58RdGjhsov9dvQxFcYeA + BzG+4cpggfAZOOuK0dH5aGq7UIA5V7StDh0w== +X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:1045:b0:54e:81c9:6110 with SMTP id + 2adb3069b0e04-54e8cc0cae1mr3390829e87.50.1745794201791; Sun, 27 Apr 2025 + 15:50:01 -0700 (PDT) +MIME-Version: 1.0 +References: <hU75DurC5XToqizyA-vOKmVtmzd3uZGDKOyXuE_ogE6eQ8tPCrvX__S08fG_nrW5CjH6IUx7EPrq8KwM5KFy9ltbFBJZQCHR2ThoimRbMqU=@protonmail.com> + <5c13e130-aaa2-4866-be26-7498100e868b@murch.one> <7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9-2506a2410b29@murch.one> + <vgcVopNpWCowIGaIpVgjsCWyTMjxVKoWtRdDVnTNrM8tYPjKtC6MJ6S-2KxIYdJYgAhG8iNPig-xijwd7DtAm6tHN3T3xgIMUNUSTBYvT_A=@protonmail.com> + <672cb527-9005-46fc-be2c-4508d39cfd7dn@googlegroups.com> +In-Reply-To: <672cb527-9005-46fc-be2c-4508d39cfd7dn@googlegroups.com> +From: Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com> +Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2025 18:49:49 -0400 +X-Gm-Features: ATxdqUEZsSb9u-AFBuoWXhiWuDjTgB1uyo97fTdYOjDk019X0Lyly0yTvhGp9E0 +Message-ID: <CADL_X_eXcmD8fEpL9Sqqwt6EfwtdjG+Aaqk+pgSBhPmaVT3gEw@mail.gmail.com> +Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Unbreaking testnet4 +To: Saint Wenhao <saintwenhao@gmail.com> +Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003fb81f0633ca63b4" +X-Original-Sender: jameson.lopp@gmail.com +X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass + header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=AF+0BniV; spf=pass + (google.com: domain of jameson.lopp@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::136 + as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jameson.lopp@gmail.com; dmarc=pass + (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com +Precedence: list +Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com +List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com> +X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 +List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> +List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com> +List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev +List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com> +List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>, + <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe> +X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) + +--0000000000003fb81f0633ca63b4 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +On Sun, Apr 27, 2025 at 12:47=E2=80=AFPM Saint Wenhao <saintwenhao@gmail.co= +m> wrote: + +> What about introducing demurrage in testnet5 consensus rules? +> +In general it seems desirable for a testnet to be as close as possible to +mainnet's rules. Demurrage might be asking a bit much in terms of deviation= +. + +I'd suggest simply disabling the halving logic and making it a perpetual 50 +TBTC issuance. At that rate, it would still take ~8 years or so to surpass +the 21M limit and I'd think that testnets should be reset more frequently +than that. + +> +> Testnet coins were supposed to be worthless. But it failed in both +> testnet3 and testnet4. In the meanwhile, signet was introduced, to make a +> more stable test network. However, signing blocks was listed on wiki page +> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes as something, that "Require +> unanimous consent". And, as the history can tell us, people still wanted = +to +> test mining anyway, which is why testnet3 and testnet4 have much more +> chainwork than signet (and when it comes to signet, sending +> signed-but-unmined blocks to the miners was never implemented, so they ha= +d +> no chance to provide more hashing power). +> +> Another kind of change on the list, that would require consent, was +> increasing the total number of coins beyond 21 million. But then, testing +> supply limits would be harder, and it could cause integer overflows in so= +me +> cases. But: in all test networks, including testnet3, testnet4, and signe= +t, +> there was never a problem of "not enough coins for miners", so that chang= +e +> probably wouldn't solve any problems (and seeing it in action would take +> years anyway; testnet4 is still far from the first halving, and it is +> traded anyway, so that change won't fix it). +> +> Then, we have the third option, which was not yet tried in test networks: +> demurrage. There are two main options: burning coins, or re-assigning the= +m +> to someone else. To make a soft-fork out of it, re-assigning would be +> backward-incompatible, so it is probably easier to just implement burning= +, +> and just treat all coins older than N blocks in the same way, as OP_RETUR= +N, +> by simply invalidating transactions spending them on consensus level. +> +> Also, when it comes to maintaining testnet nodes, if it would be possible +> to automatically remove things from the UTXO set, then it would make +> Initial Blockchain Download easier, just because new nodes wouldn't need = +to +> synchronize everything, if old coins would be automatically invalidated. = +In +> practice, all nodes could be just running in pruned mode all the time, an= +d +> everything beyond the pruning point, could be simply ignored on consensus +> level (which would also prevent the UTXO set from exploding). And then, i= +f +> we would keep for example the last 2,016 blocks, then the whole chain wou= +ld +> never take more than 2016 * 4 MB =3D 8.064 GB of storage, and that's all = +we +> would need to send during Initial Blockchain Download to other nodes. +> +> poniedzia=C5=82ek, 31 marca 2025 o 22:50:27 UTC+2 Antoine Poinsot napisa= +=C5=82(a): +> +>> Good point on not having the flag day on a holiday. One or two weeks +>> sounds good to me. +>> +>> +>> +>> +>> On Monday, March 24th, 2025 at 8:25 AM, Murch <mu...@murch.one> wrote: +>> +>> > +>> > +>> > Errr, I wrote the same date as you, but I meant a week later, +>> 2026-01-08 +>> > instead. +>> > +>> > -Murch +>> > +>> > On 2025-03-21 14:20, Murch wrote: +>> > +>> > > Hey Antoine and everyone, +>> > > +>> > > What you suggest makes sense to me. Since the 20-minute difficulty +>> > > exception is now exploited perpetually, it doesn=E2=80=99t serve its= + intended +>> > > purpose of allowing developers to mine themselves a few coins easily +>> or +>> > > confirm their own non-standard transactions. In that case, it would +>> be +>> > > better to not have it at all. +>> > > +>> > > On 2025-03-18 07:29, 'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development +>> Mailing +>> > > List wrote: +>> > > +>> > > > I propose to fix this by removing the difficulty reset rule from +>> > > > testnet4 through a flag day hard fork on 2026-01-01. +>> > > +>> > > I would suggest to pick a date that=E2=80=99s not a holiday in many = +places to +>> > > avoid disrupting people=E2=80=99s holiday, how about 2026-01-01 inst= +ead? +>> > > +>> > > Cheers, +>> > > Murch +>> > +>> > +>> > -- +>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google +>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. +>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send +>> an email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com. +>> > To view this discussion visit +>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9-250= +6a2410b29%40murch.one. +>> +>> +> -- +> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups +> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. +> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an +> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. +> To view this discussion visit +> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/672cb527-9005-46fc-be2c-4508= +d39cfd7dn%40googlegroups.com +> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/672cb527-9005-46fc-be2c-450= +8d39cfd7dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter> +> . +> + +--=20 +You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= +Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. +To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= +mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. +To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= +CADL_X_eXcmD8fEpL9Sqqwt6EfwtdjG%2BAaqk%2BpgSBhPmaVT3gEw%40mail.gmail.com. + +--0000000000003fb81f0633ca63b4 +Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote g= +mail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Apr 27,= + 2025 at 12:47=E2=80=AFPM Saint Wenhao <<a href=3D"mailto:saintwenhao@gm= +ail.com">saintwenhao@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D= +"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2= +04,204,204);padding-left:1ex">What about introducing demurrage in testnet5 = +consensus rules?<br></blockquote><div>In general it seems desirable for a t= +estnet to be as close as possible to mainnet's rules. Demurrage might b= +e asking a bit much in terms of deviation.</div><div><br></div><div>I'd= + suggest simply disabling the halving logic and making it a perpetual 50 TB= +TC issuance. At that rate, it would still take ~8 years or so to surpass th= +e 21M limit and I'd think that testnets should be reset more frequently= + than that.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px = +0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>Test= +net coins were supposed to be worthless. But it failed in both testnet3 and= + testnet4. In the meanwhile, signet was introduced, to make a more stable t= +est network. However, signing blocks was listed on wiki page <a href=3D"htt= +ps://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes" target=3D"_blank">https://en.bi= +tcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes</a> as something, that "Require unani= +mous consent". And, as the history can tell us, people still wanted to= + test mining anyway, which is why testnet3 and testnet4 have much more chai= +nwork than signet (and when it comes to signet, sending signed-but-unmined = +blocks to the miners was never implemented, so they had no chance to provid= +e more hashing power).<br><br>Another kind of change on the list, that woul= +d require consent, was increasing the total number of coins beyond 21 milli= +on. But then, testing supply limits would be harder, and it could cause int= +eger overflows in some cases. But: in all test networks, including testnet3= +, testnet4, and signet, there was never a problem of "not enough coins= + for miners", so that change probably wouldn't solve any problems = +(and seeing it in action would take years anyway; testnet4 is still far fro= +m the first halving, and it is traded anyway, so that change won't fix = +it).<br><br>Then, we have the third option, which was not yet tried in test= + networks: demurrage. There are two main options: burning coins, or re-assi= +gning them to someone else. To make a soft-fork out of it, re-assigning wou= +ld be backward-incompatible, so it is probably easier to just implement bur= +ning, and just treat all coins older than N blocks in the same way, as OP_R= +ETURN, by simply invalidating transactions spending them on consensus level= +.<br><br>Also, when it comes to maintaining testnet nodes, if it would be p= +ossible to automatically remove things from the UTXO set, then it would mak= +e Initial Blockchain Download easier, just because new nodes wouldn't n= +eed to synchronize everything, if old coins would be automatically invalida= +ted. In practice, all nodes could be just running in pruned mode all the ti= +me, and everything beyond the pruning point, could be simply ignored on con= +sensus level (which would also prevent the UTXO set from exploding). And th= +en, if we would keep for example the last 2,016 blocks, then the whole chai= +n would never take more than 2016 * 4 MB =3D 8.064 GB of storage, and that&= +#39;s all we would need to send during Initial Blockchain Download to other= + nodes.<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_= +attr">poniedzia=C5=82ek, 31 marca 2025 o=C2=A022:50:27 UTC+2 Antoine Poinso= +t napisa=C5=82(a):<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg= +in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e= +x">Good point on not having the flag day on a holiday. One or two weeks sou= +nds good to me. +<br> +<br> +<br> +<br> +<br>On Monday, March 24th, 2025 at 8:25 AM, Murch <mu...@murch.one> w= +rote: +<br> +<br>>=20 +<br>>=20 +<br>> Errr, I wrote the same date as you, but I meant a week later, 2026= +-01-08 +<br>> instead. +<br>>=20 +<br>> -Murch +<br>>=20 +<br>> On 2025-03-21 14:20, Murch wrote: +<br>>=20 +<br>> > Hey Antoine and everyone, +<br>> >=20 +<br>> > What you suggest makes sense to me. Since the 20-minute diffi= +culty +<br>> > exception is now exploited perpetually, it doesn=E2=80=99t se= +rve its intended +<br>> > purpose of allowing developers to mine themselves a few coins= + easily or +<br>> > confirm their own non-standard transactions. In that case, it= + would be +<br>> > better to not have it at all. +<br>> >=20 +<br>> > On 2025-03-18 07:29, 'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin De= +velopment Mailing +<br>> > List wrote: +<br>> >=20 +<br>> > > I propose to fix this by removing the difficulty reset r= +ule from +<br>> > > testnet4 through a flag day hard fork on 2026-01-01. +<br>> >=20 +<br>> > I would suggest to pick a date that=E2=80=99s not a holiday i= +n many places to +<br>> > avoid disrupting people=E2=80=99s holiday, how about 2026-01-= +01 instead? +<br>> >=20 +<br>> > Cheers, +<br>> > Murch +<br>>=20 +<br>>=20 +<br>> -- +<br>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= + Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. +<br>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, = +send an email to <a rel=3D"nofollow">bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com</a>. +<br>> To view this discussion visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com= +/d/msgid/bitcoindev/7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9-2506a2410b29%40murch.one" rel= +=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoinde= +v/7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9-2506a2410b29%40murch.one</a>. +<br></blockquote></div> + +<p></p> + +-- <br> +You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= +quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.<br> +To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= +mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target= +=3D"_blank">bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br> +To view this discussion visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= +bitcoindev/672cb527-9005-46fc-be2c-4508d39cfd7dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_med= +ium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.googl= +e.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/672cb527-9005-46fc-be2c-4508d39cfd7dn%40googlegrou= +ps.com</a>.<br> +</blockquote></div></div> + +<p></p> + +-- <br /> +You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= +quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.<br /> +To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= +mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">bitcoind= +ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br /> +To view this discussion visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= +bitcoindev/CADL_X_eXcmD8fEpL9Sqqwt6EfwtdjG%2BAaqk%2BpgSBhPmaVT3gEw%40mail.g= +mail.com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.com/= +d/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_eXcmD8fEpL9Sqqwt6EfwtdjG%2BAaqk%2BpgSBhPmaVT3gEw%= +40mail.gmail.com</a>.<br /> + +--0000000000003fb81f0633ca63b4-- + |