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| author | Richard Hein <richard.hein@gmail.com> | 2017-09-25 19:30:23 -0400 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2017-09-25 23:30:26 +0000 |
| commit | 149ee3f316e87cdb1939fef1d409dc00373e0085 (patch) | |
| tree | d0720924336f21535b5fecae489606a7cd3fd2f6 | |
| parent | da51b4863e14e20f5a92cd972afacfb9c78e746c (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-149ee3f316e87cdb1939fef1d409dc00373e0085.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-149ee3f316e87cdb1939fef1d409dc00373e0085.zip | |
Re: [bitcoin-dev] idea post: trimming and demurrage
| -rw-r--r-- | de/c2b1b12bf98f49ef89a85cc213e66f34809edd | 245 |
1 files changed, 245 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/de/c2b1b12bf98f49ef89a85cc213e66f34809edd b/de/c2b1b12bf98f49ef89a85cc213e66f34809edd new file mode 100644 index 000000000..ceca1d3dd --- /dev/null +++ b/de/c2b1b12bf98f49ef89a85cc213e66f34809edd @@ -0,0 +1,245 @@ +Return-Path: <richard.hein@gmail.com> +Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org + [172.17.192.35]) + by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E0AE941 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Mon, 25 Sep 2017 23:30:26 +0000 (UTC) +X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 +Received: from mail-io0-f170.google.com (mail-io0-f170.google.com + [209.85.223.170]) + by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D29E614B + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Mon, 25 Sep 2017 23:30:25 +0000 (UTC) +Received: by mail-io0-f170.google.com with SMTP id e189so11325320ioa.4 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Mon, 25 Sep 2017 16:30:25 -0700 (PDT) +DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; + h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:date:subject:message-id + :references:in-reply-to:to; + bh=BJKYQMyUuCGcEu76JW0aG7uoOeegyNXsZRlmtblNxYI=; + b=n2p1BbBgYw6cZbkRYPdXSyp4HTqL2bQ5OzT4ZN21vDv43fRvvi/25chxx1T1IFx6k/ + viyH1wuhj5PZl2rdECNSRRUwAZfHWhqeeym3qFDECbeB5Nwb6M8clUW6FCVJteX9fpJH + +Z/rARtDwQJC8IGbesYgQ8EayETI+GoNioVmTjlKBcmAd9KWzp3i/xtNLprnaFZU0yFf + HRbYb6ThoDmNcJ5kb7MtrHNJN8iR9tak62i0q8eHfYGKLLJrbt+yD6NR1DFGxYU+o2wn + TOjOJawpKw21N3R4Zb8s6XtV4YKSXc60GR5t8KY67iUa2OOvg7e41YjX1P5LESkw4CQV + rgnQ== +X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; + d=1e100.net; s=20161025; + h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:date + :subject:message-id:references:in-reply-to:to; + bh=BJKYQMyUuCGcEu76JW0aG7uoOeegyNXsZRlmtblNxYI=; + b=GnPUdFpyQiDLHkYP6z0tNYZ8QgJ6YmUhOIwneTf9nI6IsKRZ/5SHlUuVireAThcDXd + hfwHMk8DML5+uTb4eDQaq+l5yIElgEgdwhVjmKUmf6Vv8P9vXuJaA+APuIVzg54QvX37 + aqnsDQuH3veu0kiMU+DDnKnAEHuTQYPstROkEIW6pTFe6pAzF1iq15dSVDPJFe0Ai3N9 + pr+eY8WdhEre+wq0qy7vFsFPaZn/kOoJR/vt/T4ToHLvs+sq+n7yt+0alAJtT6gmX+Za + ibtlQaw4iS4FWUlvVoHchI7+xk6EtHx/ljniolWn7HenuaRnjps1imul8Qh8wnSREjPs + cLYg== +X-Gm-Message-State: AHPjjUgJhnJPxt1TtmpG5VzUKbxHzOSCuayjs3YX68TRXpkct/Z4ZPJr + AzLOFxC6plUu5DpYAzwfC6o= +X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QBNdGkpvbl4yE0i0n+L5SIrWHbmY3fDfYbULFTJsMSRRPd726RDXNWd28cVXbVnnHrCBOzrPg== +X-Received: by 10.107.147.8 with SMTP id v8mr13066668iod.45.1506382225123; + Mon, 25 Sep 2017 16:30:25 -0700 (PDT) +Received: from [192.168.2.29] (otwaon1140w-lp130-01-174-93-56-77.dsl.bell.ca. + [174.93.56.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id + i125sm4421911itf.1.2017.09.25.16.30.24 + (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); + Mon, 25 Sep 2017 16:30:24 -0700 (PDT) +From: Richard Hein <richard.hein@gmail.com> +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; + boundary=Apple-Mail-B849AF78-331F-4402-A937-7C570D2C0FBC +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) +Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 19:30:23 -0400 +Message-Id: <AECFA9C4-DF1B-452A-8249-B7DAE0A67B19@gmail.com> +References: <CAES+R-qpBwXdROKnXW0idierJYf7pSRe3Z=KSYvcGwB_S6nXrA@mail.gmail.com> +In-Reply-To: <CAES+R-qpBwXdROKnXW0idierJYf7pSRe3Z=KSYvcGwB_S6nXrA@mail.gmail.com> +To: Patrick Sharp <psharp.x13@gmail.com>, + Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (14G60) +X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, + DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE, + RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, + RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM autolearn=disabled version=3.3.1 +X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on + smtp1.linux-foundation.org +X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 23:36:47 +0000 +Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] idea post: trimming and demurrage +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2017 23:30:26 -0000 + + +--Apple-Mail-B849AF78-331F-4402-A937-7C570D2C0FBC +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset=us-ascii +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +It kills Bitcoin as a store of value. Disk space is not the problem; bandwi= +dth is. The blockchain won't go to infinity as you suggest, as it is bounde= +d by certain constraints. It's growth is a function of the transactions in a= + block, and the number of blocks is linear in growth. =20 + +Sent from my iPhone + +> On Sep 25, 2017, at 5:54 PM, Patrick Sharp via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@li= +sts.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: +>=20 +> Hello Devs, +>=20 +> I am Patrick Sharp. I just graduated with a BS is computer science. Forgiv= +e my ignorance. +>=20 +> As per bip-0002 I have scoured each bip available on the wiki to see if th= +ese ideas have already been formally proposed and now as per bip-0002 post t= +hese ideas here. +>=20 +> First and foremost I acknowledge that these ideas are not original nor new= +. +>=20 +> Trimming and demurrage: +>=20 +> I am fully aware that demurrage is a prohibited change. I hereby contest. = +For the record I am not a miner, I am just aware of the economics that drive= + the costs of bitcoin. +>=20 +> Without the ability to maintain some sort of limit on the maximum length o= +r size of the block chain, block chain is not only unsustainable in the long= + run but becomes more and more centralized as the block chain becomes more a= +nd more unwieldy. +>=20 +> Trimming is not a foreign concept. Old block whose transactions are now sp= +ent hold no real value. Meaningful trimming is expensive and inhibited by un= +spent transactions. Old unspent transactions add unnecessary and unfair burd= +en. +> Old transactions take up real world space that continues incur cost while t= +hese transactions they do not continue to contribute to any sort of payment f= +or this cost. +> One can assume that anybody with access to their bitcoins has the power to= + move these bitcoins from one address to another (or at least that the softw= +are that holds the keys to their coins can do it for them) and it is not unf= +air to require them to do so at least once every 5 to 10 years. +> Given the incentive to move it or lose it and software that will do it for= + them, we can assume that any bitcoin not moved is most likey therefore lost= +. +> moving these coins will cost a small transaction fee which is fair as thei= +r transactions take up space, they need to contribute +> most people who use their coins regularly will not even need to worry abou= +t this as their coins are moved to a change address anyway. +> one downside is that paper wallets would then have an expiration date, how= +ever I do not think that a paper wallet that needs to be recycled every 5 to= + 10 years is a terrible idea. +> Therefore I propose that the block chain length be limited to either 2^18 b= +locks (slightly less than 5 years) or 2^19 blocks, or slightly less than 10 y= +ears. I propose that each time a block is mined the the oldest block(s) (no m= +ore than two blocks) beyond this limit is trimmed from the chain and that it= +s unspent transactions are allowed to be included in the reward of the mined= + block. +>=20 +> This keeps the block chain from tending towards infinity. This keeps the c= +osts of the miners balanced with the costs of the users. +>=20 +> Even though I believe this idea will have some friction, it is applicable t= +o the entire community. It will be hard for some users to give up small bene= +fits that they get at the great cost of miners, however miners run the game a= +nd this fair proposal is in in their best interest in two different ways. I w= +ould like your thoughts and suggestions. I obviously think this is a freakin= +g awesome idea. I know it is quite controversial but it is the next step in e= +volution that bitcoin needs to take to ensure immortality. +>=20 +> I come to you to ask if this has any chance of acceptance. +>=20 +> -Patrick +> _______________________________________________ +> bitcoin-dev mailing list +> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev + +--Apple-Mail-B849AF78-331F-4402-A937-7C570D2C0FBC +Content-Type: text/html; + charset=utf-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D= +utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>It kills Bitcoin as a store of value. &= +nbsp;Disk space is not the problem; bandwidth is. The blockchain won't= + go to infinity as you suggest, as it is bounded by certain constraints. &nb= +sp;It's growth is a function of the transactions in a block, and the number o= +f blocks is linear in growth. <br><br>Sent from my iPhone</div><div><b= +r>On Sep 25, 2017, at 5:54 PM, Patrick Sharp via bitcoin-dev <<a href=3D"= +mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundat= +ion.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D= +"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Hello Devs,</span><div style=3D"font-= +size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">I am Patrick Sharp. I= + just graduated with a BS is computer science. Forgive my ignorance.</div><d= +iv style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">As p= +er bip-0002 I have scoured each bip available on the wiki to see if these id= +eas have already been formally proposed and now as per bip-0002 post these i= +deas here.</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font= +-size:12.8px">First and foremost I acknowledge that these ideas are not orig= +inal nor new.</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"f= +ont-size:12.8px"><div>Trimming and demurrage:</div><div><br></div><div>I am f= +ully aware that demurrage is a prohibited change. I hereby contest. For the r= +ecord I am not a miner, I am just aware of the economics that drive the cost= +s of bitcoin.</div><div><br></div><div>Without the ability to maintain some s= +ort of limit on the maximum length or size of the block chain, block chain i= +s not only unsustainable in the long run but becomes more and more centraliz= +ed as the block chain becomes more and more unwieldy.</div><div><br></div><d= +iv>Trimming is not a foreign concept. Old block whose transactions are now s= +pent hold no real value. Meaningful trimming is expensive and inhibited by u= +nspent transactions. Old unspent transactions add unnecessary and unfair bur= +den.</div><div><ul><li style=3D"margin-left:15px">Old transactions take up r= +eal world space that continues incur cost while these transactions they do n= +ot continue to contribute to any sort of payment for this cost.<br></li><li s= +tyle=3D"margin-left:15px">One can assume that anybody with access to their b= +itcoins has the power to move these bitcoins from one address to another (or= + at least that the software that holds the keys to their coins can do it for= + them) and it is not unfair to require them to do so at least once every 5 t= +o 10 years.<br></li><ul><li style=3D"margin-left:15px">Given the incentive t= +o move it or lose it and software that will do it for them, we can assume th= +at any bitcoin not moved is most likey therefore lost.</li><li style=3D"marg= +in-left:15px">moving these coins will cost a small transaction fee which is f= +air as their transactions take up space, they need to contribute</li><li sty= +le=3D"margin-left:15px">most people who use their coins regularly will not e= +ven need to worry about this as their coins are moved to a change address an= +yway.</li></ul><li style=3D"margin-left:15px">one downside is that paper wal= +lets would then have an expiration date, however I do not think that a paper= + wallet that needs to be recycled every 5 to 10 years is a terrible idea.</l= +i></ul>Therefore I propose that the block chain length be limited to either 2= +^18 blocks (slightly less than 5 years) or 2^19 blocks, or slightly less tha= +n 10 years. I propose that each time a block is mined the the oldest block(s= +) (no more than two blocks) beyond this limit is trimmed from the chain and t= +hat its unspent transactions are allowed to be included in the reward of the= + mined block.</div></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div styl= +e=3D"font-size:12.8px">This keeps the block chain from tending towards infin= +ity. This keeps the costs of the miners balanced with the costs of the users= +.</div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.= +8px"><div><span style=3D"font-size:12.8px">Even though I believe this i= +dea will have some friction, it is applicable to the entire community. It wi= +ll be hard for some users to give up small benefits that they get at the gre= +at cost of miners, however miners run the game and this fair proposal is in i= +n their best interest in two different ways. I would like your thoughts and s= +uggestions. I obviously think this is a freaking awesome idea. I know it is q= +uite controversial but it is the next step in evolution that bitcoin ne= +eds to take to ensure immortality.</span></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8p= +x"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">I come to you to ask if this ha= +s any chance of acceptance.</div></div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px"><br><= +/div><div style=3D"font-size:12.8px">-Patrick</div></div> +</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span>____________________= +___________________________</span><br><span>bitcoin-dev mailing list</span><= +br><span><a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-de= +v@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a></span><br><span><a href=3D"https://lists.lin= +uxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev">https://lists.linuxfoundation= +.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></= +html>= + +--Apple-Mail-B849AF78-331F-4402-A937-7C570D2C0FBC-- + |