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| author | Daniel Lidstrom <lidstrom83@gmail.com> | 2014-04-20 23:46:29 -0600 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2014-04-21 05:46:38 +0000 |
| commit | 107417e3aec641a5cba6406267dada219fd1525d (patch) | |
| tree | fdadda09f2c10d4e44b5f3d28126001072981751 | |
| parent | 89e39963d00a077d96a91f264335cd0370265c73 (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-107417e3aec641a5cba6406267dada219fd1525d.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-107417e3aec641a5cba6406267dada219fd1525d.zip | |
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Economics of information propagation
| -rw-r--r-- | e6/82477a9865f9173cc77c235aaaa357d98811e7 | 1539 |
1 files changed, 1539 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/e6/82477a9865f9173cc77c235aaaa357d98811e7 b/e6/82477a9865f9173cc77c235aaaa357d98811e7 new file mode 100644 index 000000000..e87139aa3 --- /dev/null +++ b/e6/82477a9865f9173cc77c235aaaa357d98811e7 @@ -0,0 +1,1539 @@ +Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191] + helo=mx.sourceforge.net) + by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) + (envelope-from <lidstrom83@gmail.com>) id 1Wc73u-0003zb-7L + for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; + Mon, 21 Apr 2014 05:46:38 +0000 +Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com + designates 209.85.223.173 as permitted sender) + client-ip=209.85.223.173; envelope-from=lidstrom83@gmail.com; + helo=mail-ie0-f173.google.com; +Received: from mail-ie0-f173.google.com ([209.85.223.173]) + by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) + (Exim 4.76) id 1Wc73q-00045M-S3 + for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; + Mon, 21 Apr 2014 05:46:38 +0000 +Received: by mail-ie0-f173.google.com with SMTP id rl12so3593694iec.32 + for <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>; + Sun, 20 Apr 2014 22:46:29 -0700 (PDT) +MIME-Version: 1.0 +X-Received: by 10.50.27.2 with SMTP id p2mr20055479igg.32.1398059189543; Sun, + 20 Apr 2014 22:46:29 -0700 (PDT) +Received: by 10.64.73.129 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Apr 2014 22:46:29 -0700 (PDT) +In-Reply-To: <CADjHg8GY2J4bjp=Cj08WtMJ+pfMOSqBopSnmM_GLdtsOfrz3JQ@mail.gmail.com> +References: <mailman.122233.1398039406.2207.bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> + <52CDA01B-13BF-4BB8-AC9A-5FBBB324FD15@sant.ox.ac.uk> + <CACh7GpFGEvR+_qArYCkgi7AW4coSeH741ob4hmBpj6G3MayNAQ@mail.gmail.com> + <a9a262a9-c70f-470d-81e0-ca32c41d8dc5@email.android.com> + <CADjHg8GY2J4bjp=Cj08WtMJ+pfMOSqBopSnmM_GLdtsOfrz3JQ@mail.gmail.com> +Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 23:46:29 -0600 +Message-ID: <CADjHg8HVX0pkAVVRiuQ6VfOcZarKyBg6_1OjRjUvrRa2-Acq=A@mail.gmail.com> +From: Daniel Lidstrom <lidstrom83@gmail.com> +To: Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org> +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b1119015e2b1704f78705a0 +X-Spam-Score: -0.3 (/) +X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. + See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. + -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for + sender-domain + 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider + (lidstrom83[at]gmail.com) + -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record + 0.2 FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT Envelope-from freemail username ends in + digit (lidstrom83[at]gmail.com) + 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message + -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from + author's domain + 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, + not necessarily valid + -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature +X-Headers-End: 1Wc73q-00045M-S3 +Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>, + Jonathan Levin <jonathan.levin@sant.ox.ac.uk> +Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Economics of information propagation +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 +Precedence: list +List-Id: <bitcoin-development.lists.sourceforge.net> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, + <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_name=bitcoin-development> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development>, + <mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 05:46:38 -0000 + +--047d7b1119015e2b1704f78705a0 +Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +If this policy of mining empty blocks upon new block headers before +downloading and verifying the blocks became the standard, then wouldn't the +marginal orphan probability per transaction vanish? It seems like this +could be a way to seriously reduce transaction fees. + + +On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 10:44 PM, Daniel Lidstrom <lidstrom83@gmail.com>wro= +te: + +> +> Of course, in reality smaller miners can just mine on top of block header= +s +>> and include no transactions and do no validation, but that is extremely +>> harmful to the security of Bitcoin. +> +> +> If it's only during the few seconds that it takes to to verify the block, +> then would this really be that big of a deal? E.g. even if all miners di= +d +> this, a 10 second delay would only yield an average of a couple blind/emp= +ty +> blocks per day. +> +> +> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 10:06 PM, Peter Todd <pete@petertodd.org> wrote: +> +>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- +>> Hash: SHA256 +>> +>> That is mistaken: you can't mine on top of just a block header, leaving +>> small miners disadvantaged as they are earning no profit while they wait +>> for the information to validate the block and update their UTXO sets. Th= +is +>> results in the same problem as before, as the large pools who mine most +>> blocks can validate either instantly - the self-mine case - or more quic= +kly +>> than the smaller miners. +>> +>> Of course, in reality smaller miners can just mine on top of block +>> headers and include no transactions and do no validation, but that is +>> extremely harmful to the security of Bitcoin. +>> +>> +>> On 20 April 2014 23:58:58 GMT-04:00, Mark Friedenbach <mark@monetize.io> +>> wrote: +>> >As soon as we switch to headers +>> >first - which will be soon - there will be no difference in propagation +>> >time no matter how large the block is. Only 80 bites will be required +>> >to +>> >propagate the block header which establishes priority for when the +>> >block is +>> >fully validated. +>> >On Apr 20, 2014 6:56 PM, "Jonathan Levin" +>> ><jonathan.levin@sant.ox.ac.uk> +>> >wrote: +>> > +>> >> Hi all, +>> >> +>> >> I am a post-graduate economist writing a paper on the incentives of +>> >> mining. Even though this issue has been debated in the forums, I +>> >think it +>> >> is important to get a sense of the magnitude of the incentives at +>> >play and +>> >> determine what implications this has for the transaction fee market. +>> >> +>> >> As it has been pointed out before the marginal cost for miners does +>> >not +>> >> stem from the private cost of the miner validating the signature and +>> >> including it in the list of transactions in the block but rather the +>> >> increased probability that the block will be orphaned as a result of +>> >slower +>> >> propagation. Gavin did some back of the envelope worst case +>> >calculations +>> >> but these overstated the effect of propagation delay. The reason +>> >being the +>> >> 80ms additional time to reach 50% of the network is spread throughout +>> >the +>> >> time that it takes to reach 50% of the network. During this time +>> >miners are +>> >> notified about the block and treat it as the longest chain and hence +>> >are no +>> >> longer mining with the aim to produce a competing block. +>> >> +>> >> I am looking to calculate the change in the curvature of the +>> >probability +>> >> mass function that a block hears about my block in any given second +>> >as a +>> >> function of the block size. Although there is likely to be +>> >significant +>> >> noise here, there seems to be some stable linear relationships with +>> >the +>> >> time that it takes to reach different quartiles. Has anyone done +>> >this? I +>> >> have used some empirical data that I am happy to share but ideally I +>> >would +>> >> like analytical solutions. +>> >> +>> >> Following Peter Todd, I also find the concerning result that +>> >propagation +>> >> delays results in increasing returns to higher shares of the hashing +>> >power. +>> >> Indeed it may well be in the interest of large pools to publish large +>> >> blocks to increase propagation delays on the network which would +>> >increase +>> >> orphan rates particularly for small miners and miners that have not +>> >> invested in sufficient bandwidth / connectivity. If a small miner +>> >hears +>> >> about a block after 4.5 seconds on average there is a 0.7% chance +>> >that +>> >> there is already a block in circulation. Large miners can increase +>> >the +>> >> time that it takes for small miners to hear about blocks by +>> >increasing the +>> >> size of their blocks. For example if the time that it takes for a +>> >small +>> >> miner to hear about the block goes to 12 seconds there is a 2 percent +>> >> chance there is already a block in circulation for the small miner. +>> >There +>> >> is also a 1.2% chance that there will be a competing block published +>> >after +>> >> a small miner propagates in the time that it gets to full +>> >propagation. Am I +>> >> getting this right that the probability of a miner=E2=80=99s block be= +ing +>> >orphaned +>> >> is comprised of the probability that the miner was not the first to +>> >find a +>> >> valid block and the probability that given they are first, someone +>> >else in +>> >> the absence of hearing about it finds a competing valid block. +>> >> +>> >> One question is: Are orphans probabilistic and only resolved after +>> >hearing +>> >> about a new block that lengthens the chain or is there a way to know +>> >in +>> >> advance? Is it frowned upon to mine on top of a block that you have +>> >just +>> >> found even though it is very likely going to end up an orphan? +>> >> +>> >> Would be happy to share the draft form of the paper and receive any +>> >> feedback. +>> >> +>> >> Finally, at coinometrics we are working on a modified client to +>> >capture +>> >> information on network propagation and would invite any suggestions +>> >of any +>> >> other useful statistics that would be useful in the development of +>> >software. +>> >> +>> >> Best, +>> >> +>> >> Jonathan +>> >> +>> >> +>> >> +>> >> +>> >> +>> >> +>> >> +>> >> +>> >> +>> >> +>> >> On 21 Apr 2014, at 01:16, < +>> >> bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net> < +>> >> bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: +>> >> +>> >> > Send Bitcoin-development mailing list submissions to +>> >> > bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +>> >> > +>> >> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit +>> >> > +>> >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development +>> >> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to +>> >> > bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net +>> >> > +>> >> > You can reach the person managing the list at +>> >> > bitcoin-development-owner@lists.sourceforge.net +>> >> > +>> >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific +>> >> > than "Re: Contents of Bitcoin-development digest..." +>> >> > +>> >> > +>> >> > Today's Topics: +>> >> > +>> >> > 1. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Oliver Egginger) +>> >> > 2. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Christophe Biocca) +>> >> > 3. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Gmail) +>> >> > 4. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Mike Caldwell) +>> >> > 5. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Justin A) +>> >> > +>> >> > +>> >> > +>> >---------------------------------------------------------------------- +>> >> > +>> >> > Message: 1 +>> >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:43:24 +0200 +>> >> > From: Oliver Egginger <bitcoin@olivere.de> +>> >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account +>> >> > To: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> +>> >> > Message-ID: <5354154C.1080908@olivere.de> +>> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1 +>> >> > +>> >> > Hello, +>> >> > +>> >> > just my two 'cents': +>> >> > +>> >> > Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when +>> >they +>> >> > mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common use +>> >> > except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has +>> >> > established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell. +>> >> > +>> >> > - oliver +>> >> > +>> >> > +>> >> > +>> >> > +>> >> > ------------------------------ +>> >> > +>> >> > Message: 2 +>> >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 15:19:38 -0400 +>> >> > From: Christophe Biocca <christophe.biocca@gmail.com> +>> >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account +>> >> > To: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> +>> >> > Message-ID: +>> >> > <CANOOu=3D9=3D +>> >> TAnaCuyh_P2GqHaguyY39xjhj84HSA_x+6F4MOqM_A@mail.gmail.com> +>> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8 +>> >> > +>> >> > Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phonetically collides with +>> >slang +>> >> > for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e"). Apparently it means +>> >"louse" +>> >> > in Turkish as well. +>> >> > +>> >> > Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all +>> >the +>> >> > short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral. +>> >> > +>> >> > On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger +>> ><bitcoin@olivere.de> +>> >> wrote: +>> >> >> Hello, +>> >> >> +>> >> >> just my two 'cents': +>> >> >> +>> >> >> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when +>> >they +>> >> >> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common +>> >use +>> >> >> except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has +>> >> >> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell. +>> >> >> +>> >> >> - oliver +>> >> >> +>> >> >> +>> >> >> +>> >> +>> +>> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------= +------- +>> >> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book +>> >> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases +>> >and +>> >> their +>> >> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, +>> >> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book +>> >today! +>> >> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech +>> >> >> _______________________________________________ +>> >> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list +>> >> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +>> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development +>> >> > +>> >> > +>> >> > +>> >> > ------------------------------ +>> >> > +>> >> > Message: 3 +>> >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 14:32:26 -0500 +>> >> > From: Gmail <will.yager@gmail.com> +>> >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account +>> >> > Cc: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> +>> >> > Message-ID: <B687D4AD-263F-4594-BE7A-FF238B8DF7AF@gmail.com> +>> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" +>> >> > +>> >> > People in the Bitcoin community are sometimes resistant to the idea +>> >of +>> >> using the word "credit" as a unit of Bitcoin, because Bitcoin is not +>> >a +>> >> credit-based system. +>> >> > +>> >> > However, given that the average person has close to no +>> >understanding of +>> >> what "credit" means, and probably no concern for the distinction even +>> >if +>> >> they do know, it may be wise to use the futuristic and easily +>> >> understandable "credit" as our human-friendly unit. +>> >> > +>> >> > Do others agree that "credits" as a unit of account has a desirable +>> >> futuristic connotation? +>> >> > +>> >> > Will +>> >> > +>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- +>> >> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... +>> >> > Name: smime.p7s +>> >> > Type: application/pkcs7-signature +>> >> > Size: 1593 bytes +>> >> > Desc: not available +>> >> > +>> >> > ------------------------------ +>> >> > +>> >> > Message: 4 +>> >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 16:28:34 -0400 +>> >> > From: Mike Caldwell <mcaldwell@swipeclock.com> +>> >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account +>> >> > To: Christophe Biocca <christophe.biocca@gmail.com> +>> >> > Cc: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> +>> >> > Message-ID: <4098C706-D67F-474E-9C13-E4C8F56B41ED@swipeclock.com> +>> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii" +>> >> > +>> >> > By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a +>> >cultural +>> >> reference in the name. For example "satoshi" would be a reference to +>> >> Japanese culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless of +>> >who +>> >> Satoshi turns out to be. +>> >> > +>> >> > Mike +>> >> > +>> >> > Sent from my iPhone +>> >> > +>> >> >> On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, "Christophe Biocca" < +>> >> christophe.biocca@gmail.com> wrote: +>> >> >> +>> >> >> Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phonetically collides with +>> >slang +>> >> >> for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e"). Apparently it means +>> >"louse" +>> >> >> in Turkish as well. +>> >> >> +>> >> >> Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all +>> >the +>> >> >> short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral. +>> >> >> +>> >> >>> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger +>> ><bitcoin@olivere.de> +>> >> wrote: +>> >> >>> Hello, +>> >> >>> +>> >> >>> just my two 'cents': +>> >> >>> +>> >> >>> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when +>> >they +>> >> >>> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common +>> >use +>> >> >>> except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has +>> >> >>> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell. +>> >> >>> +>> >> >>> - oliver +>> >> >>> +>> >> >>> +>> >> >>> +>> >> +>> +>> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------= +------- +>> >> >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book +>> >> >>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases +>> >and +>> >> their +>> >> >>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, +>> >> >>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book +>> >today! +>> >> >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech +>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ +>> >> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list +>> >> >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +>> >> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development +>> >> >> +>> >> >> +>> >> +>> +>> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------= +------- +>> >> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book +>> >> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases +>> >and +>> >> their +>> >> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, +>> >> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book +>> >today! +>> >> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech +>> >> >> _______________________________________________ +>> >> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list +>> >> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +>> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development +>> >> > +>> >> > +>> >> > +>> >> > ------------------------------ +>> >> > +>> >> > Message: 5 +>> >> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:16:35 -0400 +>> >> > From: Justin A <allport@gmail.com> +>> >> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of account +>> >> > To: Mike Caldwell <mcaldwell@swipeclock.com> +>> >> > Cc: Bitcoin Development <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net> +>> >> > Message-ID: +>> >> > < +>> >> CAK2MuX3GufxU_AH0Kaw3pUkzgX_agok86ahCh+7r96UkxZwneQ@mail.gmail.com> +>> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" +>> >> > +>> >> > <delurk> +>> >> > +>> >> > What about "ubit", pronounced "YOU-bit", representing 1e-6 bitcoin? +>> >Easy +>> >> to +>> >> > say, tied in a visual way to the metric micro, leaves the required +>> >2 +>> >> > decimal places for the marginally numerate.. What more could one +>> >want? +>> >> > +>> >> > </delurk> +>> >> > +>> >> > Also, hi. My first post; plan to get involved over the southern +>> >> hemisphere +>> >> > winter if I can learn enough. +>> >> > On Apr 20, 2014 4:32 PM, "Mike Caldwell" <mcaldwell@swipeclock.com> +>> >> wrote: +>> >> > +>> >> >> By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a +>> >cultural +>> >> >> reference in the name. For example "satoshi" would be a reference +>> >to +>> >> >> Japanese culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless +>> >of who +>> >> >> Satoshi turns out to be. +>> >> >> +>> >> >> Mike +>> >> >> +>> >> >> Sent from my iPhone +>> >> >> +>> >> >>> On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, "Christophe Biocca" < +>> >> >> christophe.biocca@gmail.com> wrote: +>> >> >>> +>> >> >>> Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phonetically collides with +>> >slang +>> >> >>> for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e"). Apparently it means +>> >"louse" +>> >> >>> in Turkish as well. +>> >> >>> +>> >> >>> Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (all +>> >the +>> >> >>> short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neutral. +>> >> >>> +>> >> >>>> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger +>> ><bitcoin@olivere.de> +>> >> >> wrote: +>> >> >>>> Hello, +>> >> >>>> +>> >> >>>> just my two 'cents': +>> >> >>>> +>> >> >>>> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins when +>> >they +>> >> >>>> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in common +>> >use +>> >> >>>> except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units has +>> >> >>>> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell. +>> >> >>>> +>> >> >>>> - oliver +>> >> >>>> +>> >> >>>> +>> >> >>>> +>> >> >> +>> >> +>> +>> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------= +------- +>> >> >>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book +>> >> >>>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases +>> >and +>> >> >> their +>> >> >>>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, +>> >> >>>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book +>> >today! +>> >> >>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech +>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ +>> >> >>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list +>> >> >>>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +>> >> >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development +>> >> >>> +>> >> >>> +>> >> >> +>> >> +>> +>> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------= +------- +>> >> >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book +>> >> >>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases +>> >and +>> >> >> their +>> >> >>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, +>> >> >>> this first edition is now available. Download your free book +>> >today! +>> >> >>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech +>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ +>> >> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list +>> >> >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +>> >> >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development +>> >> >> +>> >> >> +>> >> >> +>> >> +>> +>> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------= +------- +>> >> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book +>> >> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases +>> >and +>> >> their +>> >> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, +>> >> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free book +>> >today! +>> >> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech +>> >> >> _______________________________________________ +>> >> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list +>> >> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +>> >> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development +>> >> >> +>> >> > -------------- next part -------------- +>> >> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... +>> >> > +>> >> > ------------------------------ +>> >> > +>> >> > +>> >> +>> +>> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------= +------- +>> >> > Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform +>> >> > Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software +>> >> > Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready +>> >> > Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration +>> >Platform +>> >> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform +>> >> > +>> >> > ------------------------------ +>> >> > +>> >> > _______________________________________________ +>> >> > Bitcoin-development mailing list +>> >> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +>> >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development +>> >> > +>> >> > +>> >> > End of Bitcoin-development Digest, Vol 35, Issue 72 +>> >> > *************************************************** +>> >> +>> >> +>> >> +>> >> +>> +>> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------= +------- +>> >> Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform +>> >> Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software +>> >> Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready +>> >> Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform +>> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform +>> >> _______________________________________________ +>> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list +>> >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +>> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development +>> >> +>> >> +>> > +>> > +>> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------= +- +>> > +>> +>> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------= +------- +>> >Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform +>> >Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software +>> >Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready +>> >Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform +>> >http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform +>> > +>> >-----------------------------------------------------------------------= +- +>> > +>> >_______________________________________________ +>> >Bitcoin-development mailing list +>> >Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +>> >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development +>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- +>> Version: APG v1.1.1 +>> +>> iQFQBAEBCAA6BQJTVJlDMxxQZXRlciBUb2RkIChsb3cgc2VjdXJpdHkga2V5KSA8 +>> cGV0ZUBwZXRlcnRvZGQub3JnPgAKCRAZnIM7qOfwhTbNB/4lHTsUN/iee7H0UyBn +>> +TDRgf1BSoUx9HP+vtwXzS0JkVQoxoB5x4Pls+ex7qIXGNxdG9EPYi1RqQ5A8RUo +>> X2ntOL2pj6qTmW4aYxqqyihiQayLs5ixHPmJxqHv343g5ekqsKmBeDuWR4hXjUyZ +>> 0Pfcp40Xd3eJ38dSbq98letl5eD+ryBPKYtb91Trumqa9S0WB8kw9IqNaXjlpfG1 +>> lYuaVEllpaLpZW+4cx1mlPneS1GmLvloWhXf4Qh4X39VXECAjOAmNKh1atJCyT7H +>> ugkOcx1F2Rxo5P3jNzBRJKyAD96sbOhKm4sX7rzSjhT3WJgyHtJm3wkeluDCOVbR +>> QZqK +>> =3DR7Tv +>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- +>> +>> +>> +>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------= +------ +>> Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform +>> Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software +>> Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready +>> Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform +>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform +>> _______________________________________________ +>> Bitcoin-development mailing list +>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net +>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development +>> +> +> + +--047d7b1119015e2b1704f78705a0 +Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable + +<div dir=3D"ltr">If this policy of mining empty blocks upon new block heade= +rs before=20 +downloading and verifying the blocks became the standard, then wouldn't= +=20 +the marginal orphan probability per transaction vanish?=C2=A0 It seems like= +=20 +this could be a way to seriously reduce transaction fees.</div><div class= +=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at= + 10:44 PM, Daniel Lidstrom <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:lidstrom= +83@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lidstrom83@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<= +br> +<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= +x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D""><br><blockq= +uote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20= +4);padding-left:1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote"> +Of course, in reality smaller miners can just mine on top of block=20 +headers and include no transactions and do no validation, but that is=20 +extremely harmful to the security of Bitcoin.</blockquote><div><br></div></= +div>If + it's only during the few seconds that it takes to to verify the block,= +=20 +then would this really be that big of a deal?=C2=A0 E.g. even if all miners= +=20 +did this, a 10 second delay would only yield an average of a couple=20 +blind/empty blocks per day.</div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><d= +iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Apr 20,= + 2014 at 10:06 PM, Peter Todd <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:pete@= +petertodd.org" target=3D"_blank">pete@petertodd.org</a>></span> wrote:<b= +r> + +<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p= +x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----<br> +Hash: SHA256<br> +<br> +That is mistaken: you can't mine on top of just a block header, leaving= + small miners disadvantaged as they are earning no profit while they wait f= +or the information to validate the block and update their UTXO sets. This r= +esults in the same problem as before, as the large pools who mine most bloc= +ks can validate either instantly - the self-mine case - or more quickly tha= +n the smaller miners.<br> + + +<br> +Of course, in reality smaller miners can just mine on top of block headers = +and include no transactions and do no validation, but that is extremely har= +mful to the security of Bitcoin.<br> +<div><div><br> +<br> +On 20 April 2014 23:58:58 GMT-04:00, Mark Friedenbach <<a href=3D"mailto= +:mark@monetize.io" target=3D"_blank">mark@monetize.io</a>> wrote:<br> +>As soon as we switch to headers<br> +>first - which will be soon - there will be no difference in propagation= +<br> +>time no matter how large the block is. Only 80 bites will be required<b= +r> +>to<br> +>propagate the block header which establishes priority for when the<br> +>block is<br> +>fully validated.<br> +>On Apr 20, 2014 6:56 PM, "Jonathan Levin"<br> +><<a href=3D"mailto:jonathan.levin@sant.ox.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">j= +onathan.levin@sant.ox.ac.uk</a>><br> +>wrote:<br> +><br> +>> Hi all,<br> +>><br> +>> I am a post-graduate economist writing a paper on the incentives o= +f<br> +>> mining. Even though this issue has been debated in the forums, I<b= +r> +>think it<br> +>> is important to get a sense of the magnitude of the incentives at<= +br> +>play and<br> +>> determine what implications this has for the transaction fee marke= +t.<br> +>><br> +>> As it has been pointed out before the marginal cost for miners doe= +s<br> +>not<br> +>> stem from the private cost of the miner validating the signature a= +nd<br> +>> including it in the list of transactions in the block but rather t= +he<br> +>> increased probability that the block will be orphaned as a result = +of<br> +>slower<br> +>> propagation. Gavin did some back of the envelope worst case<br> +>calculations<br> +>> but these overstated the effect of propagation delay. The reason<b= +r> +>being the<br> +>> 80ms additional time to reach 50% of the network is spread through= +out<br> +>the<br> +>> time that it takes to reach 50% of the network. During this time<b= +r> +>miners are<br> +>> notified about the block and treat it as the longest chain and hen= +ce<br> +>are no<br> +>> longer mining with the aim to produce a competing block.<br> +>><br> +>> I am looking to calculate the change in the curvature of the<br> +>probability<br> +>> mass function that a block hears about my block in any given secon= +d<br> +>as a<br> +>> function of the block size. Although there is likely to be<br> +>significant<br> +>> noise here, there seems to be some stable linear relationships wit= +h<br> +>the<br> +>> time that it takes to reach different quartiles. Has anyone done<b= +r> +>this? I<br> +>> have used some empirical data that I am happy to share but ideally= + I<br> +>would<br> +>> like analytical solutions.<br> +>><br> +>> Following Peter Todd, I also find the concerning result that<br> +>propagation<br> +>> delays results in increasing returns to higher shares of the hashi= +ng<br> +>power.<br> +>> Indeed it may well be in the interest of large pools to publish la= +rge<br> +>> blocks to increase propagation delays on the network which would<b= +r> +>increase<br> +>> orphan rates particularly for small miners and miners that have no= +t<br> +>> invested in sufficient bandwidth / connectivity. If a small miner<= +br> +>hears<br> +>> about a block after 4.5 seconds on average there is a 0.7% chance<= +br> +>that<br> +>> there is already a block in circulation. =C2=A0Large miners can in= +crease<br> +>the<br> +>> time that it takes for small miners to hear about blocks by<br> +>increasing the<br> +>> size of their blocks. For example if the time that it takes for a<= +br> +>small<br> +>> miner to hear about the block goes to 12 seconds there is a 2 perc= +ent<br> +>> chance there is already a block in circulation for the small miner= +.<br> +>There<br> +>> is also a 1.2% chance that there will be a competing block publish= +ed<br> +>after<br> +>> a small miner propagates in the time that it gets to full<br> +>propagation. Am I<br> +>> getting this right that the probability of a miner=E2=80=99s block= + being<br> +>orphaned<br> +>> is comprised of the probability that the miner was not the first t= +o<br> +>find a<br> +>> valid block and the probability that given they are first, someone= +<br> +>else in<br> +>> the absence of hearing about it finds a competing valid block.<br> +>><br> +>> One question is: Are orphans probabilistic and only resolved after= +<br> +>hearing<br> +>> about a new block that lengthens the chain or is there a way to kn= +ow<br> +>in<br> +>> advance? Is it frowned upon to mine on top of a block that you hav= +e<br> +>just<br> +>> found even though it is very likely going to end up an orphan?<br> +>><br> +>> Would be happy to share the draft form of the paper and receive an= +y<br> +>> feedback.<br> +>><br> +>> Finally, at coinometrics we are working on a modified client to<br= +> +>capture<br> +>> information on network propagation and would invite any suggestion= +s<br> +>of any<br> +>> other useful statistics that would be useful in the development of= +<br> +>software.<br> +>><br> +>> Best,<br> +>><br> +>> Jonathan<br> +>><br> +>><br> +>><br> +>><br> +>><br> +>><br> +>><br> +>><br> +>><br> +>><br> +>> On 21 Apr 2014, at 01:16, <<br> +>> <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.ne= +t" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net</a>&= +gt; <<br> +>> <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.ne= +t" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-development-request@lists.sourceforge.net</a>&= +gt; wrote:<br> +>><br> +>> > Send Bitcoin-development mailing list submissions to<br> +>> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-development@li= +sts.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforg= +e.net</a><br> +>> ><br> +>> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br> +>> ><br> +><a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-develop= +ment" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoi= +n-development</a><br> +>> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help&= +#39; to<br> +>> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-development-re= +quest@lists.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-development-request@= +lists.sourceforge.net</a><br> +>> ><br> +>> > You can reach the person managing the list at<br> +>> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-development-ow= +ner@lists.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-development-owner@list= +s.sourceforge.net</a><br> +>> ><br> +>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more sp= +ecific<br> +>> > than "Re: Contents of Bitcoin-development digest..."= +;<br> +>> ><br> +>> ><br> +>> > Today's Topics:<br> +>> ><br> +>> > =C2=A0 1. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Oliver Eggin= +ger)<br> +>> > =C2=A0 2. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Christophe B= +iocca)<br> +>> > =C2=A0 3. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Gmail)<br> +>> > =C2=A0 4. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Mike Caldwel= +l)<br> +>> > =C2=A0 5. Re: "bits": Unit of account (Justin A)<br= +> +>> ><br> +>> ><br> +>> ><br> +>----------------------------------------------------------------------<= +br> +>> ><br> +>> > Message: 1<br> +>> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:43:24 +0200<br> +>> > From: Oliver Egginger <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin@olivere.d= +e" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin@olivere.de</a>><br> +>> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of = +account<br> +>> > To: Bitcoin Development <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-develop= +ment@lists.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-development@lists.sou= +rceforge.net</a>><br> +>> > Message-ID: <<a href=3D"mailto:5354154C.1080908@olivere.de= +" target=3D"_blank">5354154C.1080908@olivere.de</a>><br> +>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br> +>> ><br> +>> > Hello,<br> +>> ><br> +>> > just my two 'cents':<br> +>> ><br> +>> > Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coins wh= +en<br> +>they<br> +>> > mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in comm= +on use<br> +>> > except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller units h= +as<br> +>> > established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.<br> +>> ><br> +>> > - oliver<br> +>> ><br> +>> ><br> +>> ><br> +>> ><br> +>> > ------------------------------<br> +>> ><br> +>> > Message: 2<br> +>> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 15:19:38 -0400<br> +>> > From: Christophe Biocca <<a href=3D"mailto:christophe.bioc= +ca@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christophe.biocca@gmail.com</a>><br> +>> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of = +account<br> +>> > To: Bitcoin Development <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-develop= +ment@lists.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-development@lists.sou= +rceforge.net</a>><br> +>> > Message-ID:<br> +>> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <CANOOu=3D9=3D<br> +>> <a href=3D"mailto:TAnaCuyh_P2GqHaguyY39xjhj84HSA_x%2B6F4MOqM_A@mai= +l.gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">TAnaCuyh_P2GqHaguyY39xjhj84HSA_x+6F4MOqM_A@m= +ail.gmail.com</a>><br> +>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8<br> +>> ><br> +>> > Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phonetically co= +llides with<br> +>slang<br> +>> > for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e").= + Apparently it means<br> +>"louse"<br> +>> > in Turkish as well.<br> +>> ><br> +>> > Not that this really would be avoidable with any short word (= +all<br> +>the<br> +>> > short possible words are usually taken), but it's not neu= +tral.<br> +>> ><br> +>> > On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger<br> +><<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin@olivere.de" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin@oli= +vere.de</a>><br> +>> wrote:<br> +>> >> Hello,<br> +>> >><br> +>> >> just my two 'cents':<br> +>> >><br> +>> >> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of coin= +s when<br> +>they<br> +>> >> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently in = +common<br> +>use<br> +>> >> except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller uni= +ts has<br> +>> >> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tell.<b= +r> +>> >><br> +>> >> - oliver<br> +>> >><br> +>> >><br> +>> >><br> +>><br> +>-----------------------------------------------------------------------= +-------<br> +>> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book<b= +r> +>> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide t= +o graph databases<br> +>and<br> +>> their<br> +>> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the f= +ield,<br> +>> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free b= +ook<br> +>today!<br> +>> >> <a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech" target=3D"_blank"= +>http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech</a><br> +>> >> _______________________________________________<br> +>> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list<br> +>> >> <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.n= +et" target=3D"_blank">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br> +>> >> <a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/b= +itcoin-development" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/l= +istinfo/bitcoin-development</a><br> +>> ><br> +>> ><br> +>> ><br> +>> > ------------------------------<br> +>> ><br> +>> > Message: 3<br> +>> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 14:32:26 -0500<br> +>> > From: Gmail <<a href=3D"mailto:will.yager@gmail.com" targe= +t=3D"_blank">will.yager@gmail.com</a>><br> +>> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of = +account<br> +>> > Cc: Bitcoin Development <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-develop= +ment@lists.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-development@lists.sou= +rceforge.net</a>><br> +>> > Message-ID: <<a href=3D"mailto:B687D4AD-263F-4594-BE7A-FF2= +38B8DF7AF@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">B687D4AD-263F-4594-BE7A-FF238B8DF7AF= +@gmail.com</a>><br> +>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"<br> +>> ><br> +>> > People in the Bitcoin community are sometimes resistant to th= +e idea<br> +>of<br> +>> using the word "credit" as a unit of Bitcoin, because Bi= +tcoin is not<br> +>a<br> +>> credit-based system.<br> +>> ><br> +>> > However, given that the average person has close to no<br> +>understanding of<br> +>> what "credit" means, and probably no concern for the dis= +tinction even<br> +>if<br> +>> they do know, it may be wise to use the futuristic and easily<br> +>> understandable "credit" as our human-friendly unit.<br> +>> ><br> +>> > Do others agree that "credits" as a unit of account= + has a desirable<br> +>> futuristic connotation?<br> +>> ><br> +>> > Will<br> +>> ><br> +>> > -------------- next part --------------<br> +>> > A non-text attachment was scrubbed...<br> +>> > Name: smime.p7s<br> +>> > Type: application/pkcs7-signature<br> +>> > Size: 1593 bytes<br> +>> > Desc: not available<br> +>> ><br> +>> > ------------------------------<br> +>> ><br> +>> > Message: 4<br> +>> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 16:28:34 -0400<br> +>> > From: Mike Caldwell <<a href=3D"mailto:mcaldwell@swipecloc= +k.com" target=3D"_blank">mcaldwell@swipeclock.com</a>><br> +>> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of = +account<br> +>> > To: Christophe Biocca <<a href=3D"mailto:christophe.biocca= +@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">christophe.biocca@gmail.com</a>><br> +>> > Cc: Bitcoin Development <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-develop= +ment@lists.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-development@lists.sou= +rceforge.net</a>><br> +>> > Message-ID: <<a href=3D"mailto:4098C706-D67F-474E-9C13-E4C= +8F56B41ED@swipeclock.com" target=3D"_blank">4098C706-D67F-474E-9C13-E4C8F56= +B41ED@swipeclock.com</a>><br> +>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"us-ascii"<br> +>> ><br> +>> > By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoking a= +<br> +>cultural<br> +>> reference in the name. =C2=A0For example "satoshi" would= + be a reference to<br> +>> Japanese culture just for being a common Japanese name regardless = +of<br> +>who<br> +>> Satoshi turns out to be.<br> +>> ><br> +>> > Mike<br> +>> ><br> +>> > Sent from my iPhone<br> +>> ><br> +>> >> On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, "Christophe Biocca"= +; <<br> +>> <a href=3D"mailto:christophe.biocca@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">c= +hristophe.biocca@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br> +>> >><br> +>> >> Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phoneticall= +y collides with<br> +>slang<br> +>> >> for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e&quo= +t;). Apparently it means<br> +>"louse"<br> +>> >> in Turkish as well.<br> +>> >><br> +>> >> Not that this really would be avoidable with any short wo= +rd (all<br> +>the<br> +>> >> short possible words are usually taken), but it's not= + neutral.<br> +>> >><br> +>> >>> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger<br> +><<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin@olivere.de" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin@oli= +vere.de</a>><br> +>> wrote:<br> +>> >>> Hello,<br> +>> >>><br> +>> >>> just my two 'cents':<br> +>> >>><br> +>> >>> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak of = +coins when<br> +>they<br> +>> >>> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is currently= + in common<br> +>use<br> +>> >>> except for speculation. Therefore no term for smaller= + units has<br> +>> >>> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will tel= +l.<br> +>> >>><br> +>> >>> - oliver<br> +>> >>><br> +>> >>><br> +>> >>><br> +>><br> +>-----------------------------------------------------------------------= +-------<br> +>> >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Bo= +ok<br> +>> >>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new gui= +de to graph databases<br> +>and<br> +>> their<br> +>> >>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in t= +he field,<br> +>> >>> this first edition is now available. Download your fr= +ee book<br> +>today!<br> +>> >>> <a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech" target=3D"_bl= +ank">http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech</a><br> +>> >>> _______________________________________________<br> +>> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list<br> +>> >>> <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourcefor= +ge.net" target=3D"_blank">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br> +>> >>> <a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listin= +fo/bitcoin-development" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lis= +ts/listinfo/bitcoin-development</a><br> +>> >><br> +>> >><br> +>><br> +>-----------------------------------------------------------------------= +-------<br> +>> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book<b= +r> +>> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide t= +o graph databases<br> +>and<br> +>> their<br> +>> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the f= +ield,<br> +>> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free b= +ook<br> +>today!<br> +>> >> <a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech" target=3D"_blank"= +>http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech</a><br> +>> >> _______________________________________________<br> +>> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list<br> +>> >> <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.n= +et" target=3D"_blank">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br> +>> >> <a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/b= +itcoin-development" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/l= +istinfo/bitcoin-development</a><br> +>> ><br> +>> ><br> +>> ><br> +>> > ------------------------------<br> +>> ><br> +>> > Message: 5<br> +>> > Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:16:35 -0400<br> +>> > From: Justin A <<a href=3D"mailto:allport@gmail.com" targe= +t=3D"_blank">allport@gmail.com</a>><br> +>> > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] "bits": Unit of = +account<br> +>> > To: Mike Caldwell <<a href=3D"mailto:mcaldwell@swipeclock.= +com" target=3D"_blank">mcaldwell@swipeclock.com</a>><br> +>> > Cc: Bitcoin Development <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-develop= +ment@lists.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin-development@lists.sou= +rceforge.net</a>><br> +>> > Message-ID:<br> +>> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <<br> +>> <a href=3D"mailto:CAK2MuX3GufxU_AH0Kaw3pUkzgX_agok86ahCh%2B7r96Ukx= +ZwneQ@mail.gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">CAK2MuX3GufxU_AH0Kaw3pUkzgX_agok86a= +hCh+7r96UkxZwneQ@mail.gmail.com</a>><br> +>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"<br> +>> ><br> +>> > <delurk><br> +>> ><br> +>> > What about "ubit", pronounced "YOU-bit", = +representing 1e-6 bitcoin?<br> +>Easy<br> +>> to<br> +>> > say, tied in a visual way to the metric micro, leaves the req= +uired<br> +>2<br> +>> > decimal places for the marginally numerate.. What more could = +one<br> +>want?<br> +>> ><br> +>> > </delurk><br> +>> ><br> +>> > Also, hi. My first post; plan to get involved over the southe= +rn<br> +>> hemisphere<br> +>> > winter if I can learn enough.<br> +>> > On Apr 20, 2014 4:32 PM, "Mike Caldwell" <<a hre= +f=3D"mailto:mcaldwell@swipeclock.com" target=3D"_blank">mcaldwell@swipecloc= +k.com</a>><br> +>> wrote:<br> +>> ><br> +>> >> By culturally neutral I mean we avoid deliberately invoki= +ng a<br> +>cultural<br> +>> >> reference in the name. =C2=A0For example "satoshi&qu= +ot; would be a reference<br> +>to<br> +>> >> Japanese culture just for being a common Japanese name re= +gardless<br> +>of who<br> +>> >> Satoshi turns out to be.<br> +>> >><br> +>> >> Mike<br> +>> >><br> +>> >> Sent from my iPhone<br> +>> >><br> +>> >>> On Apr 20, 2014, at 1:20 PM, "Christophe Biocca&= +quot; <<br> +>> >> <a href=3D"mailto:christophe.biocca@gmail.com" target=3D"= +_blank">christophe.biocca@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br> +>> >>><br> +>> >>> Culturally neutral? "bit" in French phoneti= +cally collides with<br> +>slang<br> +>> >>> for phallus ("bitte", with a silent "e= +"). Apparently it means<br> +>"louse"<br> +>> >>> in Turkish as well.<br> +>> >>><br> +>> >>> Not that this really would be avoidable with any shor= +t word (all<br> +>the<br> +>> >>> short possible words are usually taken), but it's= + not neutral.<br> +>> >>><br> +>> >>>> On Sun, Apr 20, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Oliver Egginger<= +br> +><<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin@olivere.de" target=3D"_blank">bitcoin@oli= +vere.de</a>><br> +>> >> wrote:<br> +>> >>>> Hello,<br> +>> >>>><br> +>> >>>> just my two 'cents':<br> +>> >>>><br> +>> >>>> Terms arises by itself. Just as most people speak= + of coins when<br> +>they<br> +>> >>>> mean bitcoins. I do not see that bitcoin is curre= +ntly in common<br> +>use<br> +>> >>>> except for speculation. Therefore no term for sma= +ller units has<br> +>> >>>> established yet. No problem in my eyes. Time will= + tell.<br> +>> >>>><br> +>> >>>> - oliver<br> +>> >>>><br> +>> >>>><br> +>> >>>><br> +>> >><br> +>><br> +>-----------------------------------------------------------------------= +-------<br> +>> >>>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reill= +y Book<br> +>> >>>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new= + guide to graph databases<br> +>and<br> +>> >> their<br> +>> >>>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders = +in the field,<br> +>> >>>> this first edition is now available. Download you= +r free book<br> +>today!<br> +>> >>>> <a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech" target=3D= +"_blank">http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech</a><br> +>> >>>> _______________________________________________<b= +r> +>> >>>> Bitcoin-development mailing list<br> +>> >>>> <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourc= +eforge.net" target=3D"_blank">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a>= +<br> +>> >>>> <a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/li= +stinfo/bitcoin-development" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net= +/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development</a><br> +>> >>><br> +>> >>><br> +>> >><br> +>><br> +>-----------------------------------------------------------------------= +-------<br> +>> >>> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Bo= +ok<br> +>> >>> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new gui= +de to graph databases<br> +>and<br> +>> >> their<br> +>> >>> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in t= +he field,<br> +>> >>> this first edition is now available. Download your fr= +ee book<br> +>today!<br> +>> >>> <a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech" target=3D"_bl= +ank">http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech</a><br> +>> >>> _______________________________________________<br> +>> >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list<br> +>> >>> <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourcefor= +ge.net" target=3D"_blank">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br> +>> >>> <a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listin= +fo/bitcoin-development" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lis= +ts/listinfo/bitcoin-development</a><br> +>> >><br> +>> >><br> +>> >><br> +>><br> +>-----------------------------------------------------------------------= +-------<br> +>> >> Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book<b= +r> +>> >> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide t= +o graph databases<br> +>and<br> +>> their<br> +>> >> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the f= +ield,<br> +>> >> this first edition is now available. Download your free b= +ook<br> +>today!<br> +>> >> <a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech" target=3D"_blank"= +>http://p.sf.net/sfu/NeoTech</a><br> +>> >> _______________________________________________<br> +>> >> Bitcoin-development mailing list<br> +>> >> <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.n= +et" target=3D"_blank">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br> +>> >> <a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/b= +itcoin-development" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/l= +istinfo/bitcoin-development</a><br> +>> >><br> +>> > -------------- next part --------------<br> +>> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<br> +>> ><br> +>> > ------------------------------<br> +>> ><br> +>> ><br> +>><br> +>-----------------------------------------------------------------------= +-------<br> +>> > Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform<br> +>> > Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software<br> +>> > Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud R= +eady<br> +>> > Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration<b= +r> +>Platform<br> +>> > <a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform" target=3D"_blank"= +>http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform</a><br> +>> ><br> +>> > ------------------------------<br> +>> ><br> +>> > _______________________________________________<br> +>> > Bitcoin-development mailing list<br> +>> > <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" = +target=3D"_blank">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br> +>> > <a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitco= +in-development" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listi= +nfo/bitcoin-development</a><br> +>> ><br> +>> ><br> +>> > End of Bitcoin-development Digest, Vol 35, Issue 72<br> +>> > ***************************************************<br> +>><br> +>><br> +>><br> +>><br> +>-----------------------------------------------------------------------= +-------<br> +>> Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform<br> +>> Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software<br> +>> Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready<= +br> +>> Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platfo= +rm<br> +>> <a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform" target=3D"_blank">http= +://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform</a><br> +>> _______________________________________________<br> +>> Bitcoin-development mailing list<br> +>> <a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" targe= +t=3D"_blank">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br> +>> <a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= +velopment" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/b= +itcoin-development</a><br> +>><br> +>><br> +><br> +><br> +</div></div>>-----------------------------------------------------------= +-------------<br> +<div>><br> +>-----------------------------------------------------------------------= +-------<br> +>Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform<br> +>Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software<br> +>Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready<br> +>Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform<br= +> +><a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform" target=3D"_blank">http://p.= +sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform</a><br> +><br> +</div>>-----------------------------------------------------------------= +-------<br> +<div>><br> +>_______________________________________________<br> +>Bitcoin-development mailing list<br> +><a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" target=3D"= +_blank">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br> +><a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-develop= +ment" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoi= +n-development</a><br> +</div>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----<br> +Version: APG v1.1.1<br> +<br> +iQFQBAEBCAA6BQJTVJlDMxxQZXRlciBUb2RkIChsb3cgc2VjdXJpdHkga2V5KSA8<br> +cGV0ZUBwZXRlcnRvZGQub3JnPgAKCRAZnIM7qOfwhTbNB/4lHTsUN/iee7H0UyBn<br> ++TDRgf1BSoUx9HP+vtwXzS0JkVQoxoB5x4Pls+ex7qIXGNxdG9EPYi1RqQ5A8RUo<br> +X2ntOL2pj6qTmW4aYxqqyihiQayLs5ixHPmJxqHv343g5ekqsKmBeDuWR4hXjUyZ<br> +0Pfcp40Xd3eJ38dSbq98letl5eD+ryBPKYtb91Trumqa9S0WB8kw9IqNaXjlpfG1<br> +lYuaVEllpaLpZW+4cx1mlPneS1GmLvloWhXf4Qh4X39VXECAjOAmNKh1atJCyT7H<br> +ugkOcx1F2Rxo5P3jNzBRJKyAD96sbOhKm4sX7rzSjhT3WJgyHtJm3wkeluDCOVbR<br> +QZqK<br> +=3DR7Tv<br> +-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----<br> +<div><div><br> +<br> +---------------------------------------------------------------------------= +---<br> +Start Your Social Network Today - Download eXo Platform<br> +Build your Enterprise Intranet with eXo Platform Software<br> +Java Based Open Source Intranet - Social, Extensible, Cloud Ready<br> +Get Started Now And Turn Your Intranet Into A Collaboration Platform<br> +<a href=3D"http://p.sf.net/sfu/ExoPlatform" target=3D"_blank">http://p.sf.n= +et/sfu/ExoPlatform</a><br> +_______________________________________________<br> +Bitcoin-development mailing list<br> +<a href=3D"mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" target=3D"_bla= +nk">Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net</a><br> +<a href=3D"https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development= +" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= +velopment</a><br> +</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div> +</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div> + +--047d7b1119015e2b1704f78705a0-- + + |