diff options
| author | Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof.com> | 2015-08-23 08:42:17 +0200 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2015-08-23 06:42:26 +0000 |
| commit | 0c33eed2abe7e2a0cbc33138526dc02c477d4ce0 (patch) | |
| tree | e6e2c8bffaa4815d02285207c7370b3644b9ece4 | |
| parent | b73843a3d083698c018878acd1058c5782f5a3ea (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-0c33eed2abe7e2a0cbc33138526dc02c477d4ce0.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-0c33eed2abe7e2a0cbc33138526dc02c477d4ce0.zip | |
Re: [bitcoin-dev] Libconsensus separated repository (was Bitcoin Core and hard forks)
| -rw-r--r-- | 21/2e16413e541838a83a644b143d67d4cbca13b0 | 556 |
1 files changed, 556 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/21/2e16413e541838a83a644b143d67d4cbca13b0 b/21/2e16413e541838a83a644b143d67d4cbca13b0 new file mode 100644 index 000000000..e6845eeb7 --- /dev/null +++ b/21/2e16413e541838a83a644b143d67d4cbca13b0 @@ -0,0 +1,556 @@ +Return-Path: <tamas@bitsofproof.com> +Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org + [172.17.192.35]) + by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33BE874 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Sun, 23 Aug 2015 06:42:26 +0000 (UTC) +X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 +Received: from wp059.webpack.hosteurope.de (wp059.webpack.hosteurope.de + [80.237.132.66]) + by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D8D0E5 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Sun, 23 Aug 2015 06:42:24 +0000 (UTC) +Received: from [37.143.74.116] (helo=[192.168.2.11]); authenticated + by wp059.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa + (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) + id 1ZTOyw-0002b4-SK; Sun, 23 Aug 2015 08:42:18 +0200 +Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) +Content-Type: multipart/signed; + boundary="Apple-Mail=_17BEBBF6-E660-4298-A3A0-1309321DE788"; + protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 +X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5.1 +From: Tamas Blummer <tamas@bitsofproof.com> +In-Reply-To: <CABr1YTcx4V0Q4-ZQBEiNG-z1NKeFzxzhMekRN3YRRLz+bme2iw@mail.gmail.com> +Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 08:42:17 +0200 +Message-Id: <22CF03CB-7A4B-44D9-8989-22798795BB16@bitsofproof.com> +References: <CABm2gDrApVuxF8DFf32V=pQhDKvvVfcDK=LeCXJ9h9o8CY+wNQ@mail.gmail.com> + <55B723EA.7010700@voskuil.org> + <CABm2gDok2gH2R8=x3a8PmPiM56WFg3TKzCum_WS=uV9-T1Ss3g@mail.gmail.com> + <55B939CF.1080903@voskuil.org> + <CABm2gDq1wHP01Tncw3hu=SCWQHaAOMjWOVYQWdQsOZ+E7zp9Yw@mail.gmail.com> + <CABm2gDr_ePfPeWB8pEO8QNHDjUZpybVuCAdDmMxJxMaC8+2bGA@mail.gmail.com> + <C4EA4A39-1920-4F33-822C-FBD12DF81004@bitsofproof.com> + <CABm2gDqkF20ZoexQSV8iORb3ukxxZr5RasTLxJqQfSTsTqHvog@mail.gmail.com> + <3390F712-879A-46E9-ABCD-D35B51190304@bitsofproof.com> + <CABm2gDpcEmiPNQWeUk5aTjuTSRAJSPYfgAKc7B_qrqw0w04xoA@mail.gmail.com> + <C486E9D9-D799-48B9-B80F-1A165DFD6536@bitsofproof.com> + <CABr1YTcx4V0Q4-ZQBEiNG-z1NKeFzxzhMekRN3YRRLz+bme2iw@mail.gmail.com> +To: Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com> +X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) +X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de; tamas@bitsofproof.com; 1440312144; + 7eb00295; +X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE, + RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,URIBL_BLACK autolearn=no version=3.3.1 +X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on + smtp1.linux-foundation.org +Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>, + Libbitcoin <libbitcoin@lists.dyne.org> +Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Libconsensus separated repository (was Bitcoin + Core and hard forks) +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2015 06:42:26 -0000 + + +--Apple-Mail=_17BEBBF6-E660-4298-A3A0-1309321DE788 +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; + boundary="Apple-Mail=_B72C70AC-BB6F-472F-83AF-BB1FEAC4B96B" + + +--Apple-Mail=_B72C70AC-BB6F-472F-83AF-BB1FEAC4B96B +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset=utf-8 + +I see the huge amount of sweat and love that went into core and it = +actually hurts to see that most is expended in friction and lack of a = +vision for the software architecture. + +To be concrete, this was my plan if dealing with the Core code base: + +1) I'd consider the separation of networking and storage as suggested = +for a future extended libconsensus low priority, as their design should = +be (are) dominated by the need of the consensus logic only. + +2) create an API to the consensus+networking+storage service that is not = +at the C++ language level but some scaleable cross-platform remoting, = +like eg. ZeroMQ. +This API should be minimal and simple, assuming that one fully trusts = +the node answering it. This API would unlock user land development by = +distinct teams with diverse technologies. + +3) move the wallet, QT and RPC and other backward compatibility stuff = +(if e.g. there is some mining support) in-top of the new API and into = +distinct source code repositories. + + +Tamas Blummer + +> On Aug 23, 2015, at 03:23, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com> wrote: +>=20 +> I've been pushing for greater modularization since I first got into = +bitcoin. I got quickly frustrated when I was only able to get through = +very few things (i.e. moving core structure serialization classes to a = +separate unit not called main). Working on Bitcoin has an added layer of = +frustration that goes beyond most open source projects: even though = +we're clearly in userland working at the application layer, a good = +layered protocol design is still lacking. We have no standards process = +separate from what basically amount to updates to one specific reference = +implementation. And we all need to agree on any major change, since a = +blockchain that is easily forked in contentious ways pretty much defeats = +its own purpose. +>=20 +> I went off to develop my own stack, where I could more easily avoid = +politics and focus on engineering. But I now understand the politics are = +inevitable. Bitcoin is inherently a cooperative project. Several people = +have poured themselves passionately into the reference codebase, most of = +whom did it (at least initially) purely as unpaid volunteers. There's a = +lot of love that's gone into this. But it's become pretty clear that the = +modularization is no longer merely a matter of good engineering - it is = +essential to resolving serious political challenges. +>=20 +> Perhaps the most frustrating thing of all is watching people pushing = +for relatively superficial yet highly controversial changes while we = +still lack the proper infrastructure to handle these kinds of = +divergences of opinion without either stagnating or becoming polarized. +>=20 +> I could continue working to reimplement an entire stack from scratch, = +as several others have also done - but besides the serious effort = +duplication this entails, it doesn't really seem like it will ultimately = +be a convergent process. It's too easy to let ego and habit dictate = +one's preferences rather than rational engineering considerations. +>=20 +> I know that some might feel I'm just preaching to the choir, but we = +should probably take a step back from implementation hackery and try to = +specify some core protocol layers, focusing on interfaces. Specifically, = +we need a consensus layer that doesn't try to specify networking, = +storage, wallets, UI, etc. Let different people improve upon these = +things independently in their own implementations. What matters is that = +we all converge on a common history and state. At the same time, let's = +open up more competition on all these other things that are separate = +from the consensus layer. +>=20 +> If only we were to dedicate a fraction of the effort we've put into = +this whole block size circus into what's actually important...and I = +blame myself as well... +>=20 +>=20 +> On Sat, Aug 22, 2015, 4:05 AM Tamas Blummer via bitcoin-dev = +<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org = +<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote: +>> On Aug 21, 2015, at 21:46, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n <jtimon@jtimon.cc = +<mailto:jtimon@jtimon.cc>> wrote: +>>=20 +>> On Thu, Aug 20, 2015 at 10:35 AM, Tamas Blummer = +<tamas@bitsofproof.com <mailto:tamas@bitsofproof.com>> wrote: +>>> Every re-implementation, re-factoring even copy-paste introduces a = +risk of disagreement, +>>> but also open the chance of doing the work better, in the sense of = +software engineering. +>>=20 +>> But you don't want something better, you want something functionally = +identical. +>> You may want to watch sipa's explanation on why "the implementation = +is +>> the specification" and the reasons to separate libconsensus: +>> https://youtu.be/l3O4nh79CUU?t=3D764 = +<https://youtu.be/l3O4nh79CUU?t=3D764> +>=20 +> I do want something better, but not for the focus you have. +>=20 +> Not because what you produce was not high quality, but because quality = +is achieved at a very +> high cost and is hard to uphold over generations of developer. You = +focus on a single use case +> while there are many out there for distributed ledgers. +>=20 +> I think in an infrastructure for enterprise applications, building = +consensus on the ledger is a +> cornerstone there, but is only a piece of the solution. I built = +several commercially successful +> deployments where I delegated the consensus building to a border = +router, a Bitcoin Core, +> then interfaced that trusted peer with my implementation that = +accepted Core=E2=80=99s decisions +> in an SPV manner. One might think of this setup as wasteful and = +unsuitable for =E2=80=9Csmall devices=E2=80=9D +> therefore an example of centralization people here try to avoid. +>=20 +> Enterprises have sufficient resources. Solving the business problem is = +valuable to them even at +> magnitudes higher cost than a hobbyist would bear. +>=20 +> For mainstream adoption you need to get enterprises on board too, and = +that is what I care of. +> Enterprises want code that is not only high quality, but is easy to = +maintain with a development +> team with high attrition. One has to take whatever help is offered for = +that, and one is modern +> languages and runtimes. +>=20 +> Bits of Proof=E2=80=99s own implementation of the scripts was not = +practically relevant in my commercially +> successful deployments, because of the use of a border router, but it = +helped development, +> enabling easier debug and precise error feedback esp. end even after = +Core had a reject message. +>=20 +> I integrated libconsensus only for the hope that is significantly = +fastens application side tx verification, +> which it has turned out it does not, until secp265k1 is integrated. +>=20 +> I would likely use an other extended libconsensus too, but do not = +think there was a dependency on +> that for enterprise development. +>=20 +> It would help there more to have a slim protocol server, no wallet, no = +rpc, no qt but a high +> performance remoting API. +>=20 +>> Since you already depend on libconsensus for VerifyScript, wouldn't = +it +>> be nice that it also offered VerifyTx, VerifyHeader and VerifyBlock? +>> You would still have complete control over storage, concurrency, +>> networking, policy... +>> My plan is for the C API to interface with the external storage by +>> passing a function pointer to it. +>=20 +>=20 +> Storage and validation is non-trivially interconnected, but I now the = +separation can be done, +> since I did it. +>=20 +> Excuse me, but function pointers is a pattern I used in the 80=E2=80=99s= +. I know that they are behind +> the curtain of modern abstractions with similar use, I still prefer = +not to see them again. +>=20 +> Tamas Blummer +>=20 +> _______________________________________________ +> bitcoin-dev mailing list +> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org = +<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev = +<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev> + + +--Apple-Mail=_B72C70AC-BB6F-472F-83AF-BB1FEAC4B96B +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +Content-Type: text/html; + charset=utf-8 + +<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html = +charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = +-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" = +class=3D"">I see the huge amount of sweat and love that went into core = +and it actually hurts to see that most is expended in friction and lack = +of a vision for the software architecture.<div class=3D""><br = +class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">To be concrete, this was my plan if = +dealing with the Core code base:</div><div class=3D""><br = +class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">1) I'd consider the separation of = +networking and storage as suggested for a future extended libconsensus = +low priority, as their design should be (are) dominated by the need of = +the consensus logic only.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = +class=3D"">2) create an API to the consensus+networking+storage service = +that is not at the C++ language level but some scaleable cross-platform = +remoting, like eg. ZeroMQ. </div><div class=3D"">This API should be = +minimal and simple, assuming that one fully trusts the node answering = +it. This API would unlock user land development by distinct teams with = +diverse technologies.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = +class=3D"">3) move the wallet, QT and RPC and other backward = +compatibility stuff (if e.g. there is some mining support) in-top of the = +new API and into distinct source code repositories. </div><div = +class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div = +apple-content-edited=3D"true" class=3D""> +<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: = +12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; = +letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: = +start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; = +widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" = +class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); = +font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; = +font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; = +line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; = +text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: = +0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">Tamas Blummer</div><div = +style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; = +font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; = +letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: = +start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; = +widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" = +class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" = +class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 23, 2015, at 03:23, Eric Lombrozo = +<<a href=3D"mailto:elombrozo@gmail.com" = +class=3D"">elombrozo@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br = +class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><p dir=3D"ltr" = +class=3D"">I've been pushing for greater modularization since I first = +got into bitcoin. I got quickly frustrated when I was only able to get = +through very few things (i.e. moving core structure serialization = +classes to a separate unit not called main). Working on Bitcoin has an = +added layer of frustration that goes beyond most open source projects: = +even though we're clearly in userland working at the application layer, = +a good layered protocol design is still lacking. We have no standards = +process separate from what basically amount to updates to one specific = +reference implementation. And we all need to agree on any major change, = +since a blockchain that is easily forked in contentious ways pretty much = +defeats its own purpose.</p><p dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">I went off to = +develop my own stack, where I could more easily avoid politics and focus = +on engineering. But I now understand the politics are inevitable. = +Bitcoin is inherently a cooperative project. Several people have poured = +themselves passionately into the reference codebase, most of whom did it = +(at least initially) purely as unpaid volunteers. There's a lot of love = +that's gone into this. But it's become pretty clear that the = +modularization is no longer merely a matter of good engineering - it is = +essential to resolving serious political challenges.</p><p dir=3D"ltr" = +class=3D"">Perhaps the most frustrating thing of all is watching people = +pushing for relatively superficial yet highly controversial changes = +while we still lack the proper infrastructure to handle these kinds of = +divergences of opinion without either stagnating or becoming = +polarized.</p><p dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">I could continue working to = +reimplement an entire stack from scratch, as several others have also = +done - but besides the serious effort duplication this entails, it = +doesn't really seem like it will ultimately be a convergent process. = +It's too easy to let ego and habit dictate one's preferences rather than = +rational engineering considerations. </p><p dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">I = +know that some might feel I'm just preaching to the choir, but we should = +probably take a step back from implementation hackery and try to specify = +some core protocol layers, focusing on interfaces. Specifically, we need = +a consensus layer that doesn't try to specify networking, storage, = +wallets, UI, etc. Let different people improve upon these things = +independently in their own implementations. What matters is that we all = +converge on a common history and state. At the same time, let's open up = +more competition on all these other things that are separate from the = +consensus layer.</p><p dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">If only we were to = +dedicate a fraction of the effort we've put into this whole block size = +circus into what's actually important...and I blame myself as well...<br = +class=3D""></p> +<br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">On = +Sat, Aug 22, 2015, 4:05 AM Tamas Blummer via bitcoin-dev <<a = +href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" = +class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br = +class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 = +.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div = +style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote = +type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 21, 2015, at 21:46, = +Jorge Tim=C3=B3n <<a href=3D"mailto:jtimon@jtimon.cc" target=3D"_blank"= + class=3D"">jtimon@jtimon.cc</a>> wrote:</div><br class=3D""><div = +class=3D""><span = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">On Thu, Aug = +20, 2015 at 10:35 AM, Tamas Blummer <</span><a = +href=3D"mailto:tamas@bitsofproof.com" = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px" target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">tamas@bitsofproof.com</a><span = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">> = +wrote:</span><br = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px" class=3D"">Every re-implementation, re-factoring even = +copy-paste introduces a risk of disagreement,<br class=3D"">but also = +open the chance of doing the work better, in the sense of software = +engineering.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px" class=3D""><span = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">But you don't = +want something better, you want something functionally = +identical.</span><br = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px" class=3D""><span = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">You may want = +to watch sipa's explanation on why "the implementation is</span><br = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px" class=3D""><span = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">the = +specification" and the reasons to separate libconsensus:</span><br = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px" class=3D""><a href=3D"https://youtu.be/l3O4nh79CUU?t=3D764" = +target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://youtu.be/l3O4nh79CUU?t=3D764</a><br = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px" class=3D""></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br = +class=3D""></div></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" = +class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">I do want something better, = +but not for the focus you have. </div><div class=3D""><br = +class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Not because what you produce was not = +high quality, but because quality is achieved at a very</div><div = +class=3D"">high cost and is hard to uphold over generations of = +developer. You focus on a single use case</div><div class=3D"">while = +there are many out there for distributed ledgers.</div><div class=3D""><br= + class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think in an infrastructure for = +enterprise applications, building consensus on the ledger is = +a </div><div class=3D"">cornerstone there, but is only a piece of = +the solution. I built several commercially successful</div><div = +class=3D"">deployments where I delegated the consensus building to a = +border router, a Bitcoin Core, </div><div class=3D"">then = +interfaced that trusted peer with my implementation that accepted = +Core=E2=80=99s decisions </div><div class=3D"">in an SPV manner. = +One might think of this setup as wasteful and unsuitable for =E2=80=9Csmal= +l devices=E2=80=9D</div><div class=3D"">therefore an example of = +centralization people here try to avoid.</div><div class=3D""><br = +class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Enterprises have sufficient resources. = +Solving the business problem is valuable to them even at </div><div = +class=3D"">magnitudes higher cost than a hobbyist would bear.</div><div = +class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">For mainstream adoption = +you need to get enterprises on board too, and that is what I care = +of. </div><div class=3D"">Enterprises want code that is not only = +high quality, but is easy to maintain with a development </div><div = +class=3D"">team with high attrition. One has to take whatever help is = +offered for that, and one is modern </div><div class=3D"">languages = +and runtimes.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = +class=3D""><div class=3D"">Bits of Proof=E2=80=99s own implementation of = +the scripts was not practically relevant in my commercially</div><div = +class=3D"">successful deployments, because of the use of a border = +router, but it helped development, </div><div class=3D"">enabling = +easier debug and precise error feedback esp. end even after Core had a = +reject message. </div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div= + class=3D"">I integrated libconsensus only for the hope that is = +significantly fastens application side tx verification,</div><div = +class=3D""> which it has turned out it does not, until secp265k1 is = +integrated.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I = +would likely use an other extended libconsensus too, but do not think = +there was a dependency on </div><div class=3D"">that for enterprise = +development. </div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = +class=3D"">It would help there more to have a slim protocol server, no = +wallet, no rpc, no qt but a high </div><div class=3D"">performance = +remoting API.</div></div></div><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" = +class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br = +class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div = +class=3D""><span = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">Since you = +already depend on libconsensus for VerifyScript, wouldn't it</span><br = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px" class=3D""><span = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">be nice that = +it also offered VerifyTx, VerifyHeader and VerifyBlock?</span><br = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px" class=3D""><span = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">You would = +still have complete control over storage, concurrency,</span><br = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px" class=3D""><span = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">networking, = +policy...</span><br = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px" class=3D""><span = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">My plan is = +for the C API to interface with the external storage by</span><br = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px" class=3D""><span = +style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varia= +nt:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text= +-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s= +pacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important" class=3D"">passing a = +function pointer to it.</span></div></blockquote></div></div><div = +style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D""></div><div = +class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Storage and validation = +is non-trivially interconnected, but I now the separation can be = +done,</div><div class=3D"">since I did it. </div><div class=3D""><br = +class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Excuse me, but function pointers is a = +pattern I used in the 80=E2=80=99s. I know that they are = +behind </div><div class=3D"">the curtain of modern abstractions = +with similar use, I still prefer not to see them again.</div></div><div = +style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br = +class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Tamas = +Blummer</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div = +class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" = +class=3D""></blockquote></div></div></div>________________________________= +_______________<br class=3D""> +bitcoin-dev mailing list<br class=3D""> +<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank"= + class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br class=3D""> +<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev"= + rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" = +class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<= +/a><br class=3D""> +</blockquote></div> +</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>= + +--Apple-Mail=_B72C70AC-BB6F-472F-83AF-BB1FEAC4B96B-- + +--Apple-Mail=_17BEBBF6-E660-4298-A3A0-1309321DE788 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit +Content-Disposition: attachment; + filename=signature.asc +Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; + name=signature.asc +Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail + +-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- +Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org + +iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJV2WtKAAoJEPZykcUXcTkc5WcIAJCySmxF3G2DiiZ4OegkX0Fs +ONIkmP9+l/+jPcAeZ1CdbZvXajAnMpAIlNdM+B/qK44vU8T4PCIFZNGgNOX0F1Fx +d2opKN+K+ILfGVhsbE4Tb55C9ExqYdlIinEXAaYVrZRda4zZfHqeO+oQ378zFYwX +c2PXOHVqbK76Qzmua5BmN63mq+dpm+DALpSi+aTOP2f5Y4xCViQPZjO0E6UL1WPd +qR+s9AIWYDLBcGAYPymC7zIWjFbwuNnRgdxhKLoZnfHOdWI4YnKosEj4ey/N0mJg +24oYb48zG3p4jemY0qh7CewZpFz1qS0PDJry1hr2cEEOIemdgK4YC8coi4T0D1w= +=3sUq +-----END PGP SIGNATURE----- + +--Apple-Mail=_17BEBBF6-E660-4298-A3A0-1309321DE788-- + |