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authorEthan Heilman <eth3rs@gmail.com>2025-04-04 15:22:32 -0400
committerbitcoindev <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>2025-04-06 04:48:49 -0700
commit0779c79dfd30cbe5a964f77f7cb4e3ca7f999563 (patch)
tree09caf88c032cdac0f4fc6a49d03dc2846db81ad1
parentdd6c3aa62a128e82f7be3b2ac523b33867af3727 (diff)
downloadpi-bitcoindev-0779c79dfd30cbe5a964f77f7cb4e3ca7f999563.tar.gz
pi-bitcoindev-0779c79dfd30cbe5a964f77f7cb4e3ca7f999563.zip
Re: [bitcoindev] Post Quantum Signatures and Scaling Bitcoin
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+References: <CAEM=y+XMLuGH-MAfkYanfbU3Ynduw54jDVguKxgO2xEtnSEkZg@mail.gmail.com>
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+In-Reply-To: <Z_AoU94vMDskLJ4Z@console>
+From: Ethan Heilman <eth3rs@gmail.com>
+Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2025 15:22:32 -0400
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+Message-ID: <CAEM=y+UtU_FTX-bc6uRmJ1iwk_cNwQJOe-d0hGBrawewNiimJg@mail.gmail.com>
+Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Post Quantum Signatures and Scaling Bitcoin
+To: Brandon Black <freedom@reardencode.com>
+Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
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+
+> I'm curious your thoughts on the long term incentive changes for node
+runners of such a scheme.
+> [...] Such a disjunction between the cost of transaction verification dur=
+ing
+relay vs. during block validation also represents a further externality
+imposed on node runners which is not compensated (as node runners do not
+gain fees for verifying and relaying transactions, and their primary
+benefit comes in the form of finality by verifying blocks).
+
+That's an important question to figure out.
+I don't frame the problem as the difference in costs between running a
+full relay or block only. If we could make blocks-only nodes free to
+run without changing the costs for full relay, I'd be in favor of
+that. I frame it as running a full relay shouldn't be too expensive,
+hopefully no more expensive than it is today.
+
+In theory the transaction aggregation approach could help in two ways:
+
+1. If most transactions are aggregated prior to entering the mempool
+then we might be able to reduce verification costs for full relay and
+only slightly increase the bandwidth costs.
+
+2. Relay nodes could do the aggregation themselves for users and
+collect fees for performing this service and performing relay. The
+fact that aggregation is one way, once a relay node performs it,
+another relay could not pull the transactions together, allowing each
+step in the aggregation pipe to collect fees. I don't have a detailed
+design for how this would work. Do you have any thoughts on how such a
+design would work?
+
+
+
+
+On Fri, Apr 4, 2025 at 2:43=E2=80=AFPM Brandon Black <freedom@reardencode.c=
+om> wrote:
+>
+> Hi Ethan,
+>
+> Interesting idea for bringing PQ cryptography to bitcoin without
+> sacrificing throughput or IBD cost.
+>
+> On 2025-04-04 (Fri) at 12:29:46 -0400, Ethan Heilman wrote:
+> > Such a system would present scaling issues for the mempool because
+> > prior to aggregation and compression, these transactions would be 2kb
+> > to 100kb in size and there would be a lot more of them. It is likely
+> > parties producing large numbers of transactions would want to
+> > pre-aggregate and compress them in one big many input, many output
+> > transactions. Aggregating prior to the miner may have privacy benefits
+> > but also scalability benefits as it would enable cut-throughs and very
+> > cheap consolidation transactions. ~87/txns a second does not include
+> > these additional scalability benefits.
+>
+> I'm curious your thoughts on the long term incentive changes for node
+> runners of such a scheme.
+>
+> Currently, running a node in full relay vs. blocks only isn't a
+> significant resource difference. Only the smallest of nodes operate in
+> blocks only mode afaik. With a scheme like this, the delta would expand
+> significantly, potentially weakening the transaction relay network.
+>
+> Such a disjunction between the cost of transaction verification during
+> relay vs. during block validation also represents a further externality
+> imposed on node runners which is not compensated (as node runners do not
+> gain fees for verifying and relaying transactions, and their primary
+> benefit comes in the form of finality by verifying blocks).
+>
+> All the best,
+>
+> --
+> --Brandon
+
+--=20
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