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author | Ethan Heilman <eth3rs@gmail.com> | 2025-04-04 15:22:32 -0400 |
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committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> | 2025-04-06 04:48:49 -0700 |
commit | 0779c79dfd30cbe5a964f77f7cb4e3ca7f999563 (patch) | |
tree | 09caf88c032cdac0f4fc6a49d03dc2846db81ad1 | |
parent | dd6c3aa62a128e82f7be3b2ac523b33867af3727 (diff) | |
download | pi-bitcoindev-0779c79dfd30cbe5a964f77f7cb4e3ca7f999563.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-0779c79dfd30cbe5a964f77f7cb4e3ca7f999563.zip |
Re: [bitcoindev] Post Quantum Signatures and Scaling Bitcoin
-rw-r--r-- | 52/bc2c3c4bfcab13f93b64ebfdcf7659f3d1e282 | 244 |
1 files changed, 244 insertions, 0 deletions
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[2a00:1450:4864:20::635]) + by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5b1f17b1804b1-43ec34f3122si808955e9.2.2025.04.04.12.23.09 + for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> + (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); + Fri, 04 Apr 2025 12:23:09 -0700 (PDT) +Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eth3rs@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::635 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::635; +Received: by mail-ej1-x635.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-ac2a9a74d9cso80661466b.1 + for <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>; Fri, 04 Apr 2025 12:23:09 -0700 (PDT) +X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncu9GS+aH64c+91mIH72gH52SXo87Cb0DpFAXspLG8ImY8z4xzFYKJffYOpKb+Q + nARNIndCSX9Mfyp+w70ZR8OisUshX2gR98MrFLWjNtS2e9mIJlQ3rS3dNyFutx/tNtDHof80NfL + n4CHCNnh46FYOJ9QAPaanbBLRXiGw= +X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:2da7:b0:abb:9d27:290b with SMTP id + a640c23a62f3a-ac7d182e7eemr369123666b.9.1743794589067; Fri, 04 Apr 2025 + 12:23:09 -0700 (PDT) +MIME-Version: 1.0 +References: <CAEM=y+XMLuGH-MAfkYanfbU3Ynduw54jDVguKxgO2xEtnSEkZg@mail.gmail.com> + <Z_AoU94vMDskLJ4Z@console> +In-Reply-To: <Z_AoU94vMDskLJ4Z@console> +From: Ethan Heilman <eth3rs@gmail.com> +Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2025 15:22:32 -0400 +X-Gm-Features: ATxdqUFWhz6BWKsYPz0Ovrrk4WaHLBZz6qEq3liWfjmJiezru-UU6vbQhf9s0uk +Message-ID: <CAEM=y+UtU_FTX-bc6uRmJ1iwk_cNwQJOe-d0hGBrawewNiimJg@mail.gmail.com> +Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Post Quantum Signatures and Scaling Bitcoin +To: Brandon Black <freedom@reardencode.com> +Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> +Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +X-Original-Sender: eth3rs@gmail.com +X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass + header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=hD614y7s; spf=pass + (google.com: domain of eth3rs@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::635 as + permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=eth3rs@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE + sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com +Precedence: list +Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com +List-ID: <bitcoindev.googlegroups.com> +X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 +List-Post: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/post>, <mailto:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> +List-Help: <https://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:bitcoindev+help@googlegroups.com> +List-Archive: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev +List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe>, <mailto:bitcoindev+subscribe@googlegroups.com> +List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+786775582512+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>, + <https://groups.google.com/group/bitcoindev/subscribe> +X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) + +> I'm curious your thoughts on the long term incentive changes for node +runners of such a scheme. +> [...] Such a disjunction between the cost of transaction verification dur= +ing +relay vs. during block validation also represents a further externality +imposed on node runners which is not compensated (as node runners do not +gain fees for verifying and relaying transactions, and their primary +benefit comes in the form of finality by verifying blocks). + +That's an important question to figure out. +I don't frame the problem as the difference in costs between running a +full relay or block only. If we could make blocks-only nodes free to +run without changing the costs for full relay, I'd be in favor of +that. I frame it as running a full relay shouldn't be too expensive, +hopefully no more expensive than it is today. + +In theory the transaction aggregation approach could help in two ways: + +1. If most transactions are aggregated prior to entering the mempool +then we might be able to reduce verification costs for full relay and +only slightly increase the bandwidth costs. + +2. Relay nodes could do the aggregation themselves for users and +collect fees for performing this service and performing relay. The +fact that aggregation is one way, once a relay node performs it, +another relay could not pull the transactions together, allowing each +step in the aggregation pipe to collect fees. I don't have a detailed +design for how this would work. Do you have any thoughts on how such a +design would work? + + + + +On Fri, Apr 4, 2025 at 2:43=E2=80=AFPM Brandon Black <freedom@reardencode.c= +om> wrote: +> +> Hi Ethan, +> +> Interesting idea for bringing PQ cryptography to bitcoin without +> sacrificing throughput or IBD cost. +> +> On 2025-04-04 (Fri) at 12:29:46 -0400, Ethan Heilman wrote: +> > Such a system would present scaling issues for the mempool because +> > prior to aggregation and compression, these transactions would be 2kb +> > to 100kb in size and there would be a lot more of them. It is likely +> > parties producing large numbers of transactions would want to +> > pre-aggregate and compress them in one big many input, many output +> > transactions. Aggregating prior to the miner may have privacy benefits +> > but also scalability benefits as it would enable cut-throughs and very +> > cheap consolidation transactions. ~87/txns a second does not include +> > these additional scalability benefits. +> +> I'm curious your thoughts on the long term incentive changes for node +> runners of such a scheme. +> +> Currently, running a node in full relay vs. blocks only isn't a +> significant resource difference. Only the smallest of nodes operate in +> blocks only mode afaik. With a scheme like this, the delta would expand +> significantly, potentially weakening the transaction relay network. +> +> Such a disjunction between the cost of transaction verification during +> relay vs. during block validation also represents a further externality +> imposed on node runners which is not compensated (as node runners do not +> gain fees for verifying and relaying transactions, and their primary +> benefit comes in the form of finality by verifying blocks). +> +> All the best, +> +> -- +> --Brandon + +--=20 +You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= +Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. +To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= +mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. +To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= +CAEM%3Dy%2BUtU_FTX-bc6uRmJ1iwk_cNwQJOe-d0hGBrawewNiimJg%40mail.gmail.com. + |