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| author | Jorge Timón <jtimon@jtimon.cc> | 2022-03-17 13:08:25 +0100 |
|---|---|---|
| committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2022-03-17 12:08:39 +0000 |
| commit | 00c4bbad7ad94a70c3c95d130e716c9606dcad47 (patch) | |
| tree | 98d8508ff54127178c5a8e440e902ac415fb6edf | |
| parent | 4e2e380703a38a0107f1472fa09feeb5ecd1174c (diff) | |
| download | pi-bitcoindev-00c4bbad7ad94a70c3c95d130e716c9606dcad47.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-00c4bbad7ad94a70c3c95d130e716c9606dcad47.zip | |
Re: [bitcoin-dev] Speedy Trial
| -rw-r--r-- | 6b/76dd85d17be5a669178ec4d0481dd4cad32992 | 174 |
1 files changed, 174 insertions, 0 deletions
diff --git a/6b/76dd85d17be5a669178ec4d0481dd4cad32992 b/6b/76dd85d17be5a669178ec4d0481dd4cad32992 new file mode 100644 index 000000000..60a6b5b8a --- /dev/null +++ b/6b/76dd85d17be5a669178ec4d0481dd4cad32992 @@ -0,0 +1,174 @@ +Return-Path: <jtimon@jtimon.cc> +Received: from smtp2.osuosl.org (smtp2.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::133]) + by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43539C000B + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:08:39 +0000 (UTC) +Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) + by smtp2.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C84F4046D + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:08:39 +0000 (UTC) +X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org +X-Spam-Flag: NO +X-Spam-Score: -1.898 +X-Spam-Level: +X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 + tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, + RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] + autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no +Authentication-Results: smtp2.osuosl.org (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 17 + Mar 2022 05:08:36 -0700 (PDT) +MIME-Version: 1.0 +References: <CAMZUoKkTDjDSgnqhYio8Lnh-yTdsNAdXbDC9RQwnN00RdbbL6w@mail.gmail.com> + <CABm2gDrdoD3QZ=gZ_nd7Q+AZpetX32dLON7pfdC4aAwpLRd4xA@mail.gmail.com> + <CAMZUoK=kpZZw++WmdRM0KTkj6dQhmtsanm9eH1TksNwypKS8Zw@mail.gmail.com> + <CABm2gDpFFg47Ld3HHhTq2SVTaCusm1ybDpEmvKV=S3cFTAQwoA@mail.gmail.com> + <CAMZUoKkPF6gPGpDWy1U+0GCONF-_qsTcOz0S1X+vx8_Kfqr8mw@mail.gmail.com> +In-Reply-To: <CAMZUoKkPF6gPGpDWy1U+0GCONF-_qsTcOz0S1X+vx8_Kfqr8mw@mail.gmail.com> +From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm9yZ2UgVGltw7Nu?= <jtimon@jtimon.cc> +Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 13:08:25 +0100 +Message-ID: <CABm2gDpFCcNcJEwia-nBhpWSjQv7DPEpqTu-bRC8RDHaoDU-=g@mail.gmail.com> +To: "Russell O'Connor" <roconnor@blockstream.com>, + Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:18:57 +0000 +Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Speedy Trial +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2022 12:08:39 -0000 + +On Sat, Mar 12, 2022 at 2:35 PM Russell O'Connor via bitcoin-dev +<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: +> +> On Fri, Mar 11, 2022 at 9:03 AM Jorge Tim=C3=B3n <jtimon@jtimon.cc> wrote= +: +> A mechanism of soft-forking against activation exists. What more do you = +want? Are we supposed to write the code on behalf of this hypothetical grou= +p of users who may or may not exist for them just so that they can have a n= +ode that remains stalled on Speedy Trial lockin? That simply isn't reasona= +ble, but if you think it is, I invite you to create such a fork. + +I want BIP+LOT=3Dtrue to be used. I want speedy trial not to be used. +Luke wrote the code to resist BIP8+LOT=3Dtrue, and if he didn't, I could +write it myself, yes. +If you think that's not reasonable code to ever run, I don't think +you're really getting the "softfork THAT YOU OPPOSE" part of the +hypothetical right. Let me try to help with an example, although I +hope we don't get derailed in the implementation details of the +hypothetical evil proposal. + +Suppose someone proposes a weight size limit increase by a extension +block softfork. +Or instead of that, just imagine the final version of the covenants +proposal has a backdoor in it or something. + + +Would you rather that proposal be deployed with speedy trial +activation or with BIP8+LOT=3Dtrue activation? + +>> +>> Please, try to imagine an example for an activation that you wouldn't li= +ke yourself. Imagine it gets proposed and you, as a user, want to resist it= +. +> +> +> If I believe I'm in the economic majority then I'll just refuse to upgrad= +e my node, which was option 2. I don't know why you dismissed it. + +Not upgrading your node doesn't prevent the softfork from being +activated in your chain. +A softfork may affect you indirectly even if you don't use the new +features yourself directly. +You may chose to stay in the old chain even if you don't consider +you're "in the economic majority" at that moment. + +> Not much can prevent a miner cartel from enforcing rules that users don't= + want other than hard forking a replacement POW. There is no effective dif= +ference between some developers releasing a malicious soft-fork of Bitcoin = +and the miners releasing a malicious version themselves. And when the mine= +r cartel forms, they aren't necessarily going to be polite enough to give a= + transparent signal of their new rules. However, without the economic majo= +rity enforcing their set of rules, the cartel continuously risks falling ap= +art from the temptation of transaction fees of the censored transactions. + +It is true that a mining cartel doesn't need to use speedy trial or +BIP8+LOT=3Dtrue to apply rule changes they want just because we do. +But they would do if they wanted to maintain the appearance of benevolence. + +> On the other hand, If I find out I'm in the economic minority then I have= + little choice but to either accept the existence of the new rules or sell = +my Bitcoin. Look, you cannot have the perfect system of money all by your = +lonesome self. Money doesn't have economic value if no one else wants to t= +rade you for it. Just ask that poor user who YOLO'd his own taproot activa= +tion in advance all by themselves. I'm sure they think they've got just th= +e perfect money system, with taproot early and everything. But now their n= +ode is stuck at block 692261 and hasn't made progress since. No doubt they= + are hunkered down for the long term, absolutely committed to their fork an= +d just waiting for the rest of the world to come around to how much better = +their version of Bitcoin is than the rest of us. + +Well, you could also have the option to stay in the old chain with the +economic minority, it doesn't have to be you alone. +We agree that one person alone can't use a currency. + +> Even though you've dismissed it, one of the considerations of taproot was= + that it is opt-in for users to use the functionality. Future soft-forks o= +ught to have the same considerations to the extent possible. + +Well, the same could be said about segwit. And yet all the +consequences of the change are not opt in. +For example, segwit contained a block size limit increase. +Sure, you can just not validate the witnesses, but then you're no +longer a full node. + |