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author | Michel 'ic' Luczak <lists@benappy.com> | 2017-12-22 00:15:18 +0100 |
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committer | bitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org> | 2017-12-21 23:21:34 +0000 |
commit | 31e6c193530260e93572fc504accc9f7ca1a2c8c (patch) | |
tree | 6730fd7762e07f2ca56fc18f550956c6abaf43e9 /46 | |
parent | 29ee0c3d7e26838538470362f3c86ae1f8dfb40d (diff) | |
download | pi-bitcoindev-31e6c193530260e93572fc504accc9f7ca1a2c8c.tar.gz pi-bitcoindev-31e6c193530260e93572fc504accc9f7ca1a2c8c.zip |
Re: [bitcoin-dev] Total fees have almost crossed the block reward
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diff --git a/46/872350746fd7e14a83c15c17a64d27e9ac3ffd b/46/872350746fd7e14a83c15c17a64d27e9ac3ffd new file mode 100644 index 000000000..5d39a3f9b --- /dev/null +++ b/46/872350746fd7e14a83c15c17a64d27e9ac3ffd @@ -0,0 +1,266 @@ +Return-Path: <lists@benappy.com> +Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org + [172.17.192.35]) + by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 65576BD1 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Thu, 21 Dec 2017 23:21:34 +0000 (UTC) +X-Greylist: delayed 00:05:59 by SQLgrey-1.7.6 +Received: from smtp-out01.mutu.shrd.fr (smtp-out01.mutu.shrd.fr + [194.187.224.13]) + by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A1D4E0 + for <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>; + Thu, 21 Dec 2017 23:21:33 +0000 (UTC) +Received: from www02.mutu.shrd.fr (www02.mutu.shrd.fr [194.187.224.16]) + by smtp-out01.mutu.shrd.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 423E7C0D3; + Fri, 22 Dec 2017 00:15:33 +0100 (CET) +Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) + by www02.mutu.shrd.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3584832F4B9; + Fri, 22 Dec 2017 00:15:33 +0100 (CET) +X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at www02.mutu.shrd.fr +Received: from www02.mutu.shrd.fr ([127.0.0.1]) + by localhost (www02.mutu.shrd.fr [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) + with ESMTP id JlOOcQ7IjMRv; Fri, 22 Dec 2017 00:15:21 +0100 (CET) +Received: from [10.0.3.253] (unknown [194.187.225.181]) + (Authenticated sender: lists@benappy.com) + by www02.mutu.shrd.fr (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 115F032F47D; + Fri, 22 Dec 2017 00:15:20 +0100 (CET) +Content-Type: multipart/alternative; + boundary="Apple-Mail=_E9908C28-CB2C-4F6F-9D36-5811AC44B344" +Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.1 \(3445.4.7\)) +From: Michel 'ic' Luczak <lists@benappy.com> +In-Reply-To: <CADL_X_fw01-PfyTPXqYAyzwV9CO8tPLrd1_eZu16Z_kz-xM7LQ@mail.gmail.com> +Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 00:15:18 +0100 +Message-Id: <EE3998F3-FB96-4D7C-BB0F-48EFEEE3324D@benappy.com> +References: <CAKaEYhJ0vC8wf9yYjovfoZLB-TTvEnVB2a3mkC-YDzmnLwtz1Q@mail.gmail.com> + <CADL_X_fw01-PfyTPXqYAyzwV9CO8tPLrd1_eZu16Z_kz-xM7LQ@mail.gmail.com> +To: Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com>, + Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.4.7) +X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE, + RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE,URIBL_RED autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 +X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on + smtp1.linux-foundation.org +X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 23:32:46 +0000 +Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Total fees have almost crossed the block reward +X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 +Precedence: list +List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> +List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> +List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> +List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, + <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> +X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 23:21:34 -0000 + + +--Apple-Mail=_E9908C28-CB2C-4F6F-9D36-5811AC44B344 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +Content-Type: text/plain; + charset=utf-8 + +Hi, + +This is the first time I post on this list. + +First of all, Thank you Jameson for the interview you gave yesterday, = +it=E2=80=99s been a model of calm and self-control for all of us. + +I deeply believe the high average fees we experience right now are = +mostly due to the miscalculations of most of the hardware (ledger & = +trezor) wallets (and probably software too) on the market. + +I personally made transactions at the worst period for the Blockchain = +with less than 40 sat/WU of fees and got confirmed in less than a day. + +I think there=E2=80=99s a lot of work to do in used education to make = +them understand that for a low amount of fees they can still get a = +transaction confirmed and that=E2=80=99s the POS=E2=80=99 work to make = +sure the transaction is legit. + +Regards, Michel. + +> On 21 Dec 2017, at 23:02, Jameson Lopp via bitcoin-dev = +<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: +>=20 +> I'd hope that the incentives are in place to encourage high volume = +senders to be more efficient in their use of block space by batching = +transactions and implementing SegWit, though this may not be the case = +for providers that pass transaction fees along to their users. +>=20 +> We've been trying to be more proactive about outreach regarding = +efficient use of block space to our own customers at BitGo - when we = +break down the cost savings of implementing a new technique, it = +generally helps to hasten their adoption. I suspect that in many cases = +this is an issue of education - we should be more proactive in calling = +out inefficient uses of block space. +>=20 +> Good resources to bookmark and share: +>=20 +> = +https://bitcointechtalk.com/saving-up-to-80-on-bitcoin-transaction-fees-by= +-batching-payments-4147ab7009fb = +<https://bitcointechtalk.com/saving-up-to-80-on-bitcoin-transaction-fees-b= +y-batching-payments-4147ab7009fb> +>=20 +> = +https://blog.zebpay.com/how-zebpay-reduced-bitcoin-transaction-fees-a9e24c= +788598 = +<https://blog.zebpay.com/how-zebpay-reduced-bitcoin-transaction-fees-a9e24= +c788598> +>=20 +> - Jameson +>=20 +> On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev = +<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org = +<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote: +> I asked adam back at hcpp how the block chain would be secured in the = +long term, once the reward goes away. The base idea has always been = +that fees would replace the block reward. +>=20 +> At that time fees were approximately 10% of the block reward, but have = +now reached 45%, with 50% potentially being crossed soon +>=20 +> https://fork.lol/reward/feepct <https://fork.lol/reward/feepct> +>=20 +> While this bodes well for the long term security of the coin, I think = +there is some legitimate concern that the fee per tx is prohibitive for = +some use cases, at this point in the adoption curve. +>=20 +> Observations of segwit adoption show around 10% at this point +>=20 +> http://segwit.party/charts/ <http://segwit.party/charts/> +>=20 +> Watching the mempool shows that the congestion is at a peak, though = +it's quite possible this will come down over the long weekend. I wonder = +if this is of concern to some. +>=20 +> https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/more/#24h = +<https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/more/#24h> +>=20 +> I thought these data points may be of interest and are mainly FYI. = +Though if further discussion is deemed appropriate, it would be = +interesting to hear thoughts. +>=20 +> _______________________________________________ +> bitcoin-dev mailing list +> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org = +<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> +> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev = +<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev> +>=20 +>=20 +> _______________________________________________ +> bitcoin-dev mailing list +> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org +> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev + + +--Apple-Mail=_E9908C28-CB2C-4F6F-9D36-5811AC44B344 +Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +Content-Type: text/html; + charset=utf-8 + +<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; = +charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; = +-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" = +class=3D"">Hi,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This = +is the first time I post on this list.</div><div class=3D""><br = +class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">First of all, Thank you Jameson for the = +interview you gave yesterday, it=E2=80=99s been a model of calm and = +self-control for all of us.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div= + class=3D"">I deeply believe the high average fees we experience right = +now are mostly due to the miscalculations of most of the hardware = +(ledger & trezor) wallets (and probably software too) on the = +market.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I = +personally made transactions at the worst period for the Blockchain with = +less than 40 sat/WU of fees and got confirmed in less than a = +day.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think = +there=E2=80=99s a lot of work to do in used education to make them = +understand that for a low amount of fees they can still get a = +transaction confirmed and that=E2=80=99s the POS=E2=80=99 work to make = +sure the transaction is legit.</div><div class=3D""><br = +class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Regards, Michel.<br class=3D""><div><br = +class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 21 = +Dec 2017, at 23:02, Jameson Lopp via bitcoin-dev <<a = +href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" = +class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:</div><br = +class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" = +class=3D"">I'd hope that the incentives are in place to encourage high = +volume senders to be more efficient in their use of block space by = +batching transactions and implementing SegWit, though this may not be = +the case for providers that pass transaction fees along to their = +users.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">We've been = +trying to be more proactive about outreach regarding efficient use of = +block space to our own customers at BitGo - when we break down the cost = +savings of implementing a new technique, it generally helps to hasten = +their adoption. I suspect that in many cases this is an issue of = +education - we should be more proactive in calling out inefficient uses = +of block space.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div = +class=3D"">Good resources to bookmark and share:</div><div class=3D""><br = +class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a = +href=3D"https://bitcointechtalk.com/saving-up-to-80-on-bitcoin-transaction= +-fees-by-batching-payments-4147ab7009fb" = +class=3D"">https://bitcointechtalk.com/saving-up-to-80-on-bitcoin-transact= +ion-fees-by-batching-payments-4147ab7009fb</a><br class=3D""></div><div = +class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a = +href=3D"https://blog.zebpay.com/how-zebpay-reduced-bitcoin-transaction-fee= +s-a9e24c788598" = +class=3D"">https://blog.zebpay.com/how-zebpay-reduced-bitcoin-transaction-= +fees-a9e24c788598</a><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br = +class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- Jameson</div></div><div = +class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, = +Dec 21, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr"= + class=3D""><<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" = +target=3D"_blank" = +class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>></span> = +wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 = +0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr" = +class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div = +class=3D""><div class=3D"">I asked adam back at hcpp how the block chain = +would be secured in the long term, once the reward goes away. The = +base idea has always been that fees would replace the block reward.<br = +class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>At that time fees were approximately 10% = +of the block reward, but have now reached 45%, with 50% potentially = +being crossed soon<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><a = +href=3D"https://fork.lol/reward/feepct" target=3D"_blank" = +class=3D"">https://fork.lol/reward/feepct</a><br class=3D""><br = +class=3D""></div>While this bodes well for the long term security of the = +coin, I think there is some legitimate concern that the fee per tx is = +prohibitive for some use cases, at this point in the adoption curve.<br = +class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Observations of segwit adoption show = +around 10% at this point<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><a = +href=3D"http://segwit.party/charts/" target=3D"_blank" = +class=3D"">http://segwit.party/charts/</a><br class=3D""><br = +class=3D""></div>Watching the mempool shows that the congestion is at a = +peak, though it's quite possible this will come down over the long = +weekend. I wonder if this is of concern to some.<br class=3D""><br = +class=3D""><a href=3D"https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/more/#24h" = +target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.<wbr = +class=3D"">de/queue/more/#24h</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>I = +thought these data points may be of interest and are mainly FYI. = +Though if further discussion is deemed appropriate, it would be = +interesting to hear thoughts.<br class=3D""></div> +<br class=3D"">______________________________<wbr = +class=3D"">_________________<br class=3D""> +bitcoin-dev mailing list<br class=3D""> +<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" = +class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr class=3D"">linuxfoundation.org</a><br = +class=3D""> +<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev"= + rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" = +class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr = +class=3D"">org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr class=3D"">dev</a><br = +class=3D""> +<br class=3D""></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div> +_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">bitcoin-dev = +mailing list<br class=3D""><a = +href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" = +class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br = +class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<= +br class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>= + +--Apple-Mail=_E9908C28-CB2C-4F6F-9D36-5811AC44B344-- + |