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authorMichel 'ic' Luczak <lists@benappy.com>2017-12-22 00:15:18 +0100
committerbitcoindev <bitcoindev@gnusha.org>2017-12-21 23:21:34 +0000
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Re: [bitcoin-dev] Total fees have almost crossed the block reward
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+From: Michel 'ic' Luczak <lists@benappy.com>
+In-Reply-To: <CADL_X_fw01-PfyTPXqYAyzwV9CO8tPLrd1_eZu16Z_kz-xM7LQ@mail.gmail.com>
+Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 00:15:18 +0100
+Message-Id: <EE3998F3-FB96-4D7C-BB0F-48EFEEE3324D@benappy.com>
+References: <CAKaEYhJ0vC8wf9yYjovfoZLB-TTvEnVB2a3mkC-YDzmnLwtz1Q@mail.gmail.com>
+ <CADL_X_fw01-PfyTPXqYAyzwV9CO8tPLrd1_eZu16Z_kz-xM7LQ@mail.gmail.com>
+To: Jameson Lopp <jameson.lopp@gmail.com>,
+ Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
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+Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Total fees have almost crossed the block reward
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+
+Hi,
+
+This is the first time I post on this list.
+
+First of all, Thank you Jameson for the interview you gave yesterday, =
+it=E2=80=99s been a model of calm and self-control for all of us.
+
+I deeply believe the high average fees we experience right now are =
+mostly due to the miscalculations of most of the hardware (ledger & =
+trezor) wallets (and probably software too) on the market.
+
+I personally made transactions at the worst period for the Blockchain =
+with less than 40 sat/WU of fees and got confirmed in less than a day.
+
+I think there=E2=80=99s a lot of work to do in used education to make =
+them understand that for a low amount of fees they can still get a =
+transaction confirmed and that=E2=80=99s the POS=E2=80=99 work to make =
+sure the transaction is legit.
+
+Regards, Michel.
+
+> On 21 Dec 2017, at 23:02, Jameson Lopp via bitcoin-dev =
+<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
+>=20
+> I'd hope that the incentives are in place to encourage high volume =
+senders to be more efficient in their use of block space by batching =
+transactions and implementing SegWit, though this may not be the case =
+for providers that pass transaction fees along to their users.
+>=20
+> We've been trying to be more proactive about outreach regarding =
+efficient use of block space to our own customers at BitGo - when we =
+break down the cost savings of implementing a new technique, it =
+generally helps to hasten their adoption. I suspect that in many cases =
+this is an issue of education - we should be more proactive in calling =
+out inefficient uses of block space.
+>=20
+> Good resources to bookmark and share:
+>=20
+> =
+https://bitcointechtalk.com/saving-up-to-80-on-bitcoin-transaction-fees-by=
+-batching-payments-4147ab7009fb =
+<https://bitcointechtalk.com/saving-up-to-80-on-bitcoin-transaction-fees-b=
+y-batching-payments-4147ab7009fb>
+>=20
+> =
+https://blog.zebpay.com/how-zebpay-reduced-bitcoin-transaction-fees-a9e24c=
+788598 =
+<https://blog.zebpay.com/how-zebpay-reduced-bitcoin-transaction-fees-a9e24=
+c788598>
+>=20
+> - Jameson
+>=20
+> On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev =
+<bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
+<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>> wrote:
+> I asked adam back at hcpp how the block chain would be secured in the =
+long term, once the reward goes away. The base idea has always been =
+that fees would replace the block reward.
+>=20
+> At that time fees were approximately 10% of the block reward, but have =
+now reached 45%, with 50% potentially being crossed soon
+>=20
+> https://fork.lol/reward/feepct <https://fork.lol/reward/feepct>
+>=20
+> While this bodes well for the long term security of the coin, I think =
+there is some legitimate concern that the fee per tx is prohibitive for =
+some use cases, at this point in the adoption curve.
+>=20
+> Observations of segwit adoption show around 10% at this point
+>=20
+> http://segwit.party/charts/ <http://segwit.party/charts/>
+>=20
+> Watching the mempool shows that the congestion is at a peak, though =
+it's quite possible this will come down over the long weekend. I wonder =
+if this is of concern to some.
+>=20
+> https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/more/#24h =
+<https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/more/#24h>
+>=20
+> I thought these data points may be of interest and are mainly FYI. =
+Though if further discussion is deemed appropriate, it would be =
+interesting to hear thoughts.
+>=20
+> _______________________________________________
+> bitcoin-dev mailing list
+> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org =
+<mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
+> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev =
+<https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>
+>=20
+>=20
+> _______________________________________________
+> bitcoin-dev mailing list
+> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
+> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
+
+
+--Apple-Mail=_E9908C28-CB2C-4F6F-9D36-5811AC44B344
+Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+Content-Type: text/html;
+ charset=utf-8
+
+<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
+charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
+-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
+class=3D"">Hi,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This =
+is the first time I post on this list.</div><div class=3D""><br =
+class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">First of all, Thank you Jameson for the =
+interview you gave yesterday, it=E2=80=99s been a model of calm and =
+self-control for all of us.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
+ class=3D"">I deeply believe the high average fees we experience right =
+now are mostly due to the miscalculations of most of the hardware =
+(ledger &amp; trezor) wallets (and probably software too) on the =
+market.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
+personally made transactions at the worst period for the Blockchain with =
+less than 40 sat/WU of fees and got confirmed in less than a =
+day.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think =
+there=E2=80=99s a lot of work to do in used education to make them =
+understand that for a low amount of fees they can still get a =
+transaction confirmed and that=E2=80=99s the POS=E2=80=99 work to make =
+sure the transaction is legit.</div><div class=3D""><br =
+class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Regards, Michel.<br class=3D""><div><br =
+class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 21 =
+Dec 2017, at 23:02, Jameson Lopp via bitcoin-dev &lt;<a =
+href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
+class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
+class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
+class=3D"">I'd hope that the incentives are in place to encourage high =
+volume senders to be more efficient in their use of block space by =
+batching transactions and implementing SegWit, though this may not be =
+the case for providers that pass transaction fees along to their =
+users.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">We've been =
+trying to be more proactive about outreach regarding efficient use of =
+block space to our own customers at BitGo - when we break down the cost =
+savings of implementing a new technique, it generally helps to hasten =
+their adoption. I suspect that in many cases this is an issue of =
+education - we should be more proactive in calling out inefficient uses =
+of block space.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
+class=3D"">Good resources to bookmark and share:</div><div class=3D""><br =
+class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a =
+href=3D"https://bitcointechtalk.com/saving-up-to-80-on-bitcoin-transaction=
+-fees-by-batching-payments-4147ab7009fb" =
+class=3D"">https://bitcointechtalk.com/saving-up-to-80-on-bitcoin-transact=
+ion-fees-by-batching-payments-4147ab7009fb</a><br class=3D""></div><div =
+class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a =
+href=3D"https://blog.zebpay.com/how-zebpay-reduced-bitcoin-transaction-fee=
+s-a9e24c788598" =
+class=3D"">https://blog.zebpay.com/how-zebpay-reduced-bitcoin-transaction-=
+fees-a9e24c788598</a><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
+class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- Jameson</div></div><div =
+class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, =
+Dec 21, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Melvin Carvalho via bitcoin-dev <span dir=3D"ltr"=
+ class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
+target=3D"_blank" =
+class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>&gt;</span> =
+wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
+0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
+class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
+class=3D""><div class=3D"">I asked adam back at hcpp how the block chain =
+would be secured in the long term, once the reward goes away.&nbsp; The =
+base idea has always been that fees would replace the block reward.<br =
+class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>At that time fees were approximately 10% =
+of the block reward, but have now reached 45%, with 50% potentially =
+being crossed soon<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><a =
+href=3D"https://fork.lol/reward/feepct" target=3D"_blank" =
+class=3D"">https://fork.lol/reward/feepct</a><br class=3D""><br =
+class=3D""></div>While this bodes well for the long term security of the =
+coin, I think there is some legitimate concern that the fee per tx is =
+prohibitive for some use cases, at this point in the adoption curve.<br =
+class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>Observations of segwit adoption show =
+around 10% at this point<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><a =
+href=3D"http://segwit.party/charts/" target=3D"_blank" =
+class=3D"">http://segwit.party/charts/</a><br class=3D""><br =
+class=3D""></div>Watching the mempool shows that the congestion is at a =
+peak, though it's quite possible this will come down over the long =
+weekend.&nbsp; I wonder if this is of concern to some.<br class=3D""><br =
+class=3D""><a href=3D"https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/more/#24h" =
+target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://dedi.jochen-hoenicke.<wbr =
+class=3D"">de/queue/more/#24h</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>I =
+thought these data points may be of interest and are mainly FYI.&nbsp; =
+Though if further discussion is deemed appropriate, it would be =
+interesting to hear thoughts.<br class=3D""></div>
+<br class=3D"">______________________________<wbr =
+class=3D"">_________________<br class=3D"">
+bitcoin-dev mailing list<br class=3D"">
+<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
+class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.<wbr class=3D"">linuxfoundation.org</a><br =
+class=3D"">
+<a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev"=
+ rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
+class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.<wbr =
+class=3D"">org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-<wbr class=3D"">dev</a><br =
+class=3D"">
+<br class=3D""></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
+_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">bitcoin-dev =
+mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
+href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" =
+class=3D"">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br =
+class=3D"">https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<=
+br class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=
+
+--Apple-Mail=_E9908C28-CB2C-4F6F-9D36-5811AC44B344--
+