From: Sayke@aol.com
Date: Mon Oct 11 1999 - 01:36:17 MDT
In a message dated 10/10/99 10:18:20 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
rowen@technologist.com writes:
> > In a message dated 10/10/99 7:21:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > patrickw@cs.monash.edu.au writes:
> >
> >
> > ...are you going to argue that an intrinsic value should be associated
> > with human life? if so, im really curious about how you would do so.
>
> The issue I would like to focus on is why many of us believe that
> life, human or otherwise, is valuable and how it came to pass that
> someone can be a member of a group and regard all other members
> ("human lives") as devoid of the value you attribute to yourself?
im not sure if i grok you here, because it seems to me like your asking
two questions, yet you say "issue", in the singular... correct me if im
wrong, but i hear you asking "why do people think of life as valuable?", and
"how can groups function if the members of the group value themselves and
their individual goals above the group and the group goals, and the other
members, and their goals?"
for the first question, wouldnt evolution favor vectors that optimized
humans for tribal cohesiveness? wouldnt a reflexive attribution of value to
the lives of (and accompanying aversion to the suffering of) ones fellow
tribesmen greatly enhance tribal cohesiveness? i thought the necassity of the
urge to preserve that-which-is-similar-to-oneself was a standard example used
in introductions to evolutionary psychology...
and for the second one, as long as the individual goals coincide with the
group goals, the group gets along pretty well, right? when they dont, some
very great schisms are produced... i view groups as functions of individuals
and their goals (maybe im being too reductionist here; if anyone can mu at
me, fire away). pardon my punkassness in saying this (and maybe im just being
stereotypical; aint labeling theory great?), but these conclusions seem quite
straightforward and intuitive to me.
> Do you really believe a life as a "transhistorical, augmented and
> superior being" lived in "splendid isolation" would be worth the
> effort?
i dont know, but i do intend to try it for a while, if i can. ill meet ya
on the far edge, but itll be a long trip over; ill have plenty of time to try
the splendid isolation thing... but, i must say, the prospect an existance of
coevolving and self-editing with such intellects as those on this list is
very appealing... and i dont think thats just my vestigial hardwiring
talking. i would probably benefit greatly from interaction, in whatever
metastable attractor i end up in, as i do now.
> [do you really believe] That now, as you are, your have
> no need to socialize for its own sake, that your relationship
> with others is entirely manipulative and exploitative in order
> to meet you uniquely valuable needs?
i think social activity is not only useful, but necassary, given my
current, well, form. such are the idiosyncrasies of my hardwiring... but i
intend to take this reflex and make it a switch.
> If you, Sayke, have no "intrinsic value" this does not prevent you
> considering your goals, hopes and intentions as having some sort
> of unique extrinsic value.
naaaa, my intrinsic nature is to be a point of view that interacts with
what it views (and in many cases is incapable of discerning the difference
between figure, ground, and self (this too needs to be fixed)). i think,
therefore i am, therefore i am that which is subjectivly/intrinsicly
valuable. significance is an observer-depandent property, and i am an
observer. i do not pretend to attribute objective/extrinsic value to myself,
my goals, my hopes, or my intentions. its all subjective/intrinsic, and
perfectly rational, i think. i expect others to attribute
subjective/intrinsic value to themselves and their priorities, as well.
here there be funky truth-by-definition recursion.
> You were born with the conviction that
> only what you wanted was worth attention, and utterly shocked
> to find that your parents had needs too and and could not reliably
> provide immediate gratification. In fact, they even expected you
> to tolerate unpleasant bladder pressure so you would not urinate
> on the living room rug?
the neural net i am a function of needed training in order to reach the
level of recursively-analytical self-awareness that i now posses. my parents
were programmed to train my network, as i am programmed to train progeny of
my own. my life is an attempt to override my programming.
> I've never understood the moral philsophy of "Solipsism", so your
> motivation and attitude remain a mystery to me. This post is
> in no way critical -- it is driven by an intense curiosity about
> the issues you raise in relation to Extropianism.
thank you for being uncritical and candid and stuff... and please
understand that my motives are similar to yours when i say that ive never
understood the moral philosophy of "collectivism", and so your apparent
motivations and attitudes remain a mystery to me.
> Is it really true
> that all of us, despite our denials and rationalizations, are
> egoists engaged in an EXCLUSIVE and ruthless search for
> self-aggrandizement?
i would argue that are we programmed to be engaged in a ruthless search
for reproduction-aggrandizement... but i dont think its nearly exclusive.
evolution fucked up when it made me. one strand of the circle of life breaks
here, and becomes a line.
> Regards,
>
> Bob
sayke, v2.3.05
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