From: Joe E. Dees (joedees@bellsouth.net)
Date: Wed May 26 1999 - 13:43:38 MDT
Date sent: Tue, 25 May 1999 08:07:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brian D Williams <talon57@well.com>
To: extropians@extropy.org
Subject: Re: Property Rights
Send reply to: extropians@extropy.com
>
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> From: "Joe E. Dees" <joedees@bellsouth.net>
>
> >I was tired of hearing the raving randian bastards on this list
> >label everybody who disagreed with the slightest scintilla of
> >their pet dogmas as evil vermin who should be exterminated for the
> >greater good, and figured they'd like a gander of getting goosed
> >by the same slimestick themselves to see how the fuck it feels to
> >be slandered by association with extremists. It's simply karmic
> >tit-for-tat; you don't do it to others, it doesn't get done back
> >to you! And it's the people with the guns who are shooting
> >everybody (always has been); they play this little "Shane" home
> >movie in their heads about how they're righteous people pushed too
> >far by bullying cliques, and the next thing you know, fifteen kids
> >are lying dead inschool halls, and the gun lobby steps on its dick
> >by claiming that if a guard had a gun he coulda stopped them when
> >one did and couldn't, and Li'l Einstein Danny Quayle kisses Wayne
> >LaPierre's ring by saying he hoped the massacre wasn't used as an
> >excuse to restrict gun sales! FUCK excuses; it's a goddamned
> >REASON! Finally the Senate got a testicle transplant and put some
> >safeguards on the criminal flea market gun shows where two of the
> >guns were bought, and insists on safety locks so's if Junior
> >nurses a carelessly left automatic and plays with the trigger, he
> >won't get a lead lunch! About Damned Time!
>
> Feel better?
>
> You can lead a horse to water, but you can't faucet.
>
> All the silly laws in the world won't stop gun violence, no law has
> any effect unless it's enforced, and the record clearly shows gun
> laws are not enforced.
>
Then enforce them. Laws only change behavior when they are
coupled with real penalties.
>
> Require trigger locks? Big deal, you may have to sell them, but
> compliance with using them will be near zero.
>
An unsupported assumption. Scientific study and author(s),
please.
>
> By the way the NRA has always supported safe storage of guns.
>
> Chicago, handguns have been illegal since 1982 (unconstitutional)
> the murder capitol of the U.S. Prosecution for illegal possession
> near zero.
>
Wrongo; that is Washington, D.C.
>
> The feds claim thousands of felons were stopped from buying guns
> under the brady bunch act.....prosecutions, near zero.
>
> I live just outside Chicago, (20' to be exact) guns are legal here
> and there is no problem.
>
> Illinois law requires every gun owner to have a FOID (firearm
> owners I.D.) which requires a background check. No gun may be sold
> or transfered without a check for a valid FOID and the record of
> any transactions must be kept for ten years.
>
> Chicago is having problems with "strawbuyers", those who purchase
> multiple guns and resell them to gang members. Under current law
> these are easy to find and track, prosecution.....you guessed it,
> near zero.
>
Then it's time to do a little foot-fire-holding.
>
> >I'm willing to either die for mine, or kill the person desiring to
> >kill me for holding them.. And you?
>
> No problem.
>
Anyone should be willling to either die or kill for freedom of thought
and expression in this country.
>
> >But not compared to the massacres which are now routinely
> >perpetrated in our schools by those to whom we look to carry the
> >future. How can you defend a system which allows our children to
> >fatally mass murder each other? I'm a military vet, a hunter, and
> >own five guns of my own, yet the idea of these kids killing each
> >other like they are in some crazed puter game is incomprehensible
> >to me. The insane among us are those who, for whatever sick or
> >profitteering reason, not only refuse to close the loopholes which
> >lead to such weapons possession, but who continue to either
> >stand idly by or applaud as the gun industry, to support its
> >future position in the marketplace, sells maiming, paralysis, coma
> >and death to our children via the same shamelessly cynical product
> >placement ad campaigns we see employed to push tobacco.
>
> So how many of these 5 guns have trigger locks?
>
None, but no kids. Now that you mention it, however, I should be
willing to walk my talk, so I'll purchase them.
>
> Military? Name, rank, serial number please.
>
AX2 Joe E. Dees, USN (I hunted nuclear submarines from H-2's
and P-3's and pulled downed pilots out of the drink in the helos
(SAR - Sea Air Rescue). And you?
>
> By the way by owning 5 guns, you support the gun industry, and I am
> unaware of the ads you mention.
>
I oppose the rampant irresponsibility I see in the cynical promotion
of firearms to our youth. Remember that the Golden boy's father
was NRA, the boy had been through their gun safety course, etc.,
if the NRA was the 4-H, he'd hava had a blue ribbon bull. He still
shot a whole lot of people from that ridge.
>
> >Mindfully reacting to the misuse of hardware by calling for laws
> >restricting access to the hardware by those who are most likely to
> >misuse it (violent criminals, spouse abusers, the insane,
> >children, etc.) is both rational and supported by any faculty of
> >reason deserving of the name.
>
> Such laws already exist, try enforcing them.
>
We agree here - we should do just that.
>
> >A blatant cop-out. You either know, or should, that the effects
> >of such measures can only be determined in practice. Pass a law
> >restricting access to firearms for the above groups of people
> >coupled with universal background checks to determine if in fact
> >any particular person is a member of those groups and a law
> >requiring trigger locks to be sold with every firearm (so that
> >they will either be harder to misuse if the locks are used or it
> >will be easier to assess responsibility through neglect if they
> >are not), and check in a reasonable amount of time to see if
> >violence has indeed been reduced. BTW, the economic prostitution
> >of the political right to the NRA and the placement of weapons as
> >"problem solvers" in movies designed to appeal to teens is not
> >rhetoric, but fact; if you don't like these facts, let's work
> >together to change them. teen
>
> The existing gun laws, minus those that are unconstitutional,
> (handgun bans, assault weapons ban) are sufficient if enforced.
>
Tell that to the parents of the Littleton dead, that B.G checks at
gun shows aren't needed. I'd love to see how they answered you.
>
> We will never work together with the antigun folks, their desire is
> to eliminate all guns.
>
Your us-them mentality and subsequent hard-line circle-the-
wagons extremism is one of the main obstacles to reasonable
people co-opreating to craft readonable solutions.
>
> I have to go send the NRA a check....
>
> <interuption for phone call to NRA>
>
Say Hi to your poster Moses for me.
>
> Brian
> Member, Extropy Institute
> www.extropy.org
> Member, Life Extension Foundation
> www.lef.org
> Member, National Rifle Association
> www.nra.org
> 1.800.672.3888
>
>
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