From: Delvieron@aol.com
Date: Fri Mar 05 1999 - 17:07:08 MST
Anders,
Thanks for the reply; let me see now....
1) Explanation - Okay, this is true. I guess I always thought of God as
Explanation as either mythology or evidence for a God, as opposed to that
actually being the role of a God, but I can see it the other way too.
2) Teachers - Maybe we should; though as I am limited, I would prefer starting
closer to home and working my way out....although, if we wanted a lobbyist for
DC, a God might do a fairly good job.<G>
3) Savior - From something we've run out of options for self preservation. In
an ideal world, we would all be able to handle any situation, but this is not
always true due to our limited nature. A Savior would be very useful at that
point, whether human, transhuman, or Power. If I can't get out of something
on my own (especially if it is something I had no responsibility for
inflicting on myself), I'm going to call for help, and be naming savior anyone
who gives me that help with no strings attached, even if it was a piddling
matter for the Uber-Power. Now granted, there are a small number of problems
where only a Power can aid, but I don't see that as a particularly bad
thing....means most of the time we can handle things ourselves, which I find
much more appealing. Now, I should acknowledge that one of the major reasons
for attributing the status of Savior in religion is the specific instance of
being rescued from permanent death and/or neverending torment, a la Christ
according to Christians. I see this specific instance of Salvation as quite
useful in case I don't manage to get past the Singularity on my own (though
I'm gonna give it the old college try). What would be less attractive is an
entity that offered saving you from mortality for a price (obey/worship me,
read my book, sing me songs off-key for the rest of your existence, etc.),
this person I would refer to more as the Extortionist, as the being takes
advantage of my desparation to gain. Of course, depending on what the
requirements were, I might have to start trying to find a way out of the deal
as soon as I was out of immediate peril. BTW, I believe the whole Savior
concept is related to why they say there are no Atheists in
Foxholes...desparate times call for desparate measures.
Judge/Referee - Nanarchism ideas? I don't remember encountering this idea
before. Could you flesh it out a little, or refer me to a reference?
Punisher & Destroyer - Not sure I like this one either, unless you consider
destructive scan uploading as a Destroyer trait...sounds vaguely Shiva-like
(Destroy the old you in order to create the new you). Punishment I would
prefer to see replaced with the double-edged gift (I will grant you complete
enlightenment -- of course that means you'll finally realize what an idiot
you've been). Imagine being able to remember your entire life in harsh,
objective detail, and having upgraded heuristics which point out all the
inconsistencies in your most cherished prejudices. Some would not welcome
such a gift (I would though, the pain would be worth the growth).
Benefactor - The Extrosattvas - Just so, I think. I just today found Greg
Burch's commentary on the Extrosattva. I think it is an excellent model for
Extropian (or just plain >H) Ethics, though I am not sure of the difference
between being Fair and Reciprocating, unless Reciprocity is considered a
special case of Fairness for interactions between two agencies, whereas
Fairness would be a sort of universal tangle of reciprocal relations. Don't
worry, Greg, I'll remember you...I hope you'll remember me.
Ideal - Sort of a proof by example that such a state can be acheived; wouldn't
it be nice to know that a Power wasn't just theoretically possible, but
existed (as long as it was REALLY NICE or REALLY DISTANT.
Personification - Humans are social animals; we like to have relationships
with that which we care about. And many humans care for abstractions, such as
Good or Power or Cats (not to be confused with 'a cat' or the musical, but
rather the concept of Cat-ness). For some, this desire would be so strong
that they would want to become the embodiment of that abstract, or would like
to have a personal relationship with a conscious representation of that
abstract. I admit to a touch of this particular fetish myself; part of the
reason why I would hope that a Power would use its ability to be the
Personification of Good.
Forgiver/Redeemer - Causality is immovable, but the feeling of Guilt sure is.
If you do something wrong, you will always have been the cause of that harm.
If you have a conscience, you would probably experience Guilt, and if others
had a sense of Justice, they would likely feel you are Guilty. Now, the
matter of guilt really is a perceptual issue. The question is, "How do you
stop feeling guilty for a previous act, and how do I get others to stop
thinking badly of me for that act?" There are several ways to do this; wait
it out if it were a minor infraction that would soon be forgotten, repair the
damage you have caused, do other good acts which convince yourself and others
that what you did before was an abberation, confess your culpability
indicating your understanding of the error and wish to never have such an
error happen, etc. One of the roles of God is as a mediator of this process.
God is perfect and all-knowing, so God might expect less from you and besides,
God already knows. So you spill your guts out to God (BTW, one of the first
ways to minimize harmful emotions is to express them), ask for forgiveness or
a way to acheive it. Then God (or the intermediaries) tell you and everyone
else all is forgiven, or how it can be forgiven. Since God is considered such
a wise being amongst the worshippers, this is pretty much accepted, and the
person is now psycho-socially salvaged (Go forth and sin no more!). This can
either be a sham redemption (a restoration of your reputation alone) or it can
be true redemption (a restoration of your character). Remember, our future
actions are often dictated by our self-image. Granted, you don't necessarily
need a God to have a way to forgive/reform people, but it is a role that has
been assigned to God in the past.
Master/Ruler - The desire to control others is a strong one in social species
such as humanity, but as we find other ways to control our environment, some
of that desire may be satiated. Now the question of whether there should be
retained in a Power really depends on whether you believe in the possibility
and utility in having a Benevolent Despot. I believe Extropianism rejects the
concept of Benevolent Despotism as an matter of principle, though it might not
be completely incompatible with some models of >H.
Companion - What if you were an Atheist, and you suddenly were presented with
scientific proof of the existence of a God, and worse, you met the Power and
actually LIKED God? I'm not talking about worship here, but what if you found
it pleasurable to be with a being with complete empathy for and understanding
of you, who could share ideas with you anywhere, anytime? Maybe our most
asocial members wouldn't care about this, and maybe others would seek similar
experience through high-bandwidth networking (hey, wasn't that suggested as
one of the ways to Create God?), but I think this might be someone some of us
found worth having around. "Hi Jup, its great to have you around. So, what
do YOU think is silliest meme ever devised? Personally, I think it is...."
Guardian - This is similar to the Savior model, but more preventative as
opposed to interventional. Making sure a dinosaur killer never got that close
to begin with would be a good start.
Supreme Power - Nothing defeats this being's will, nothing. The question
isn't what can the Supreme Power do...its what will it do. Again, in a VERY
NICE being, especially one that stayed mostly out of our lives, this might be
useful. Would pretty much guarantee success at any of the other roles this
being might assume. The Omega Point is one model of how there might be such a
being.
Eternal - It is tricky, and does require a certain immunity to the constraints
of time. I think it might be reachable, and at the very least worth
investigating. Worst that happens? We don't ever find a way to do it. Worse
than that? There's a way to do it and we didn't ever look for it.
Dr Aquinas, is God online? - I like that, like that a lot.
Glen Finney
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